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Is CO2 and fertilizer really necessary?

9K views 16 replies 5 participants last post by  Byron 
#1 ·
My tank is getting to the point where there are quite a few live plants. I have a 10 gal and 8 cllumps of plants. I don't know any of their names unfortuneately. I would not call it a heavily planted tank but I hope it soon will be. What I was wondering is if fertilizing my plants is really necessary same for C02.
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#4 ·
Well sometimes assuming can be dangerous, but since he said "clumps" I'm thinking they're stem/bunch plants.

Stem/bunch plants take all their "food" from the water column.
I think that you can have good growth -for a while- with just the fish waste, CO2 from fish, and good lighting. (My 10G livebearer is an example- I've never used any ferts in that tank, although I'm begginning to see symptoms after nearly a year and a half)

Eventually, you probably will want to buy a GOOD liquid fert like flourish comprehensive.

If any of your plants are "rooted" (stem plants will produce roots, but their roots are just for holding the plant in place.) plants like Dwarf sag, aponogetons, crypts, sword plants, etc then you will probably need some type of root fertiliser...

Post a pic of your plants and we can ID them for you.
 
#5 ·
How long have you had this very planted tank? If you were to judge the growth of the plants as it is would you say they're growing well or do you see issues? Do you see issues such as stem plants leaves all yellowing falling off? Holes in leaves?

The co2 will be provided by your fish, the proper ferts (maybe liquid maybe root tablets) would be determined by what KIND of plants you have. However its not always necessary to needing to use ferts, here's a collection of my tanks and non of them recive co2 nor ferts http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/postBitTanks.php?userid=1029
On a smaller not asked for side note: The Yoyo loach in your 10g there will rather sooner then later need a larger home and all the Tetra's are school fish that you'd ideally wanna house in groups of 8-10.
 
#7 ·
My tank is getting to the point where there are quite a few live plants. I have a 10 gal and 8 cllumps of plants. I don't know any of their names unfortuneately. I would not call it a heavily planted tank but I hope it soon will be. What I was wondering is if fertilizing my plants is really necessary same for C02.
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Plants require light and nutrients to grow (live). These must be in balance; plants will grow up to the point where something they require is lacking, whether that be sufficient light (intensity and duration) or one of the 17 nutrients they need. We call this the limiting factor, and it is always advisable to have light as the limiting factor. If the nutrients (any of them) are insufficient for the amount of light, algae will use the light and become problematical. It is important to keep the plants out-competing the algae.

Nothing has been mentioned of your light, so perhaps you could tell us what you have. Please be specific; type, watts, name of tube/bulb, the Kelvin rating if you know it (usually on the end of fluorescent tubes or the packaging). And how long each day it is on.

One thing I can say, you do not need added CO2. Other nutrients (as in liquid fertilizer) will probably be required; some come from fish foods, some from the water (the hardness), some from the fish and biological processes ongoing in all aquaria, some from organic matter that bacteria break down. But we first need to know about the light.

And on the fish, I second that the redtail shark is too potentially-large a fish for a 10g; it will develop health issues if kept in this environment. And the loach is a very social fish that must be kept in a small group, minimum three. But given its potential size, a 10 g will not be suitable for three of these. And all tetras are shoaling fish that need to be in groups to be healthy; single fish or even 2 will be stressed and subject to disease and such. These comments are not meant to be derogatory, but intended for the better health and longer life of your fish.

Byron.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Thanks Byron I understand. I love my tetras and would be happy to get more of the species I have. The guy at my aquarium store (owner) said that schooling fish in captivity won't school because they feel too secure. I do plan on getting rid of my redtail shark and my danio. They are being jerks to my tetras and rasboras. Always chasing them. And for my lights I have two screw in CFL 15 watt 6500K. They are the spiral type CFLs. I realy like them compared to my 50/50 lights I used to have.
My ludwiga is turning a redish at the top. The aquarium guy said that it will turn this color when exposed to more intense lighting. My lights are on about 8 hours a day +- 15 min.
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#9 · (Edited)
Thanks Byron I understand. I love my tetras and would be happy to get more of the species I have. The guy at my aquarium store (owner) said that schooling fish in captivity won't school because they feel too secure.
There is a misconception here between schooling and shoaling that I'll try to explain. "Schooling" technically means the fish remain in a close group and remain in "formation" when threatened by predators, and usually hunt/feed together as a group. Many marine fish around reefs do this. Freshwater fish such as characins are not strictly speaking "schooling" but "shoaling" fish which is different. Shoaling means they live in groups but it is more a social structure [sometimes very highly developed as in some cichlids and gourami, and some characins] and/or a strategy to avoid predation simply by numbers. They hunt/feed individually, not as a "pack" like wolves, although some suggest that the piranha come close to this. The group is a security issue; the fish are programmed by nature to remain together, and when a sole fish or two is placed in an aquarium, it instinctively senses that it is vulnerable and in constant danger, because its natural instincts to remain in a close group are not being met.

I do plan on getting rid of my redtail shark and my danio. They are being jerks to my tetras and rasboras. Always chasing them.
This is the natural tendency of the fish coming through. In the case of the shark, it is in a very confined space and many such fish become even more aggressive than normal under these conditions. The danio is probably reacting to not being in a group (another shoaling fish) and such fish again will often become bullies when they are out of their natural environment. The same can happen with tetras too, by the way, another reason for keeping them in suitable groups. Good idea to remove the shark and danio. Stores will often accept fish in exchange.

And for my lights I have two screw in CFL 15 watt 6500K. They are the spiral type CFLs. I really like them compared to my 50/50 lights I used to have.
My ludwiga is turning a redish at the top. The aquarium guy said that it will turn this color when exposed to more intense lighting. My lights are on about 8 hours a day +- 15 min.
On the plant, true. On the light, the colour (the 6500K) is ideal; these will result in much better plant growth than the poor 50/50 type. Two of these bulbs over a 10g is somewhat high though, so two things: less duration will help against algae, and definitely a good liquid fertilizer to assist the plants to use this light. Eight hours is fine, I would leave that; a timer (the type you buy in the hardware for lamps) is a good investment to keep the light schedule constant, both for fish and plants.

I would suggest for fertilizer Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium. I use this myself, as do many others here. Make sure it is exactly the one I've named, Seachem make several products in the Flourish line and this is the only comprehensive (complete) one and all that you need. It will only take a few drops once a week in a 10g. Always use it the day following a water change, since the water conditioner will detoxify heavy metals and some of the required nutrients are trace minerals that are also heavy metals (iron, copper, nickel, zinc, manganese) and you don't want to be wasting fertilizer when the water conditioner is detoxifying it. If you can't get Flourish locally, Nutrafin's Plant-Gro liquid is I think quite good.

Byron.
 
#10 ·
Thanks you byron. My lights are on a timer. Sorry about the confusion. I have a couple questions though. I'm using regular silicon coated gravel right now. Should I use some kind of planted aquarium substrate? I have 2 harlequin rasboras, 2 rosy tetras, (plan on getting another one or is it at least 4 that they need to feel safe together?) 1 orange neon tetra, 1 yoyo loach. (I think I need to get more of these too) and the redtail shark and danio that will be going back to the fish store. Do I need to get more rasboras for them to feel safe? I would like to get a "shoal" of true rummynose tetras and and lemon tetras. With all the extra fish I need to add for my current fish to feel safe and the new additions that I want to make, will my tank be overstocked?
 
#11 ·
Thanks you byron. My lights are on a timer. Sorry about the confusion. I have a couple questions though. I'm using regular silicon coated gravel right now. Should I use some kind of planted aquarium substrate? I have 2 harlequin rasboras, 2 rosy tetras, (plan on getting another one or is it at least 4 that they need to feel safe together?) 1 orange neon tetra, 1 yoyo loach. (I think I need to get more of these too) and the redtail shark and danio that will be going back to the fish store. Do I need to get more rasboras for them to feel safe? I would like to get a "shoal" of true rummynose tetras and and lemon tetras. With all the extra fish I need to add for my current fish to feel safe and the new additions that I want to make, will my tank be overstocked?
If you like the appearance of the gravel you have, no need to change it for plants. Plant substrates have nutrients that assist in plant growth, but they are not essential to a nice healthy planted aquarium, as my plain gravel tanks clearly illustrate. Liquid fertilizer will be sufficient. However, if you want to change the look of the substrate, then for a small tank like a 10g I would consider an enriched substrate like Flourite or Eco-complete. These are obviously more expensive than plain gravel or sand, but the amount for a 10g would be one bag so not too much to spend if you like the look. You can get these in natural browns and black, both of which are very beautiful with plants and forest fish that will really colour up with a dark substrate (if your present gravel isn't dark).

On the fish, I must suggest that you make some decisions. In a 10g you simply do not have space for all those you've mentioned, with just what you currently have since I agree they need increasing in numbers.

Tetras and rasbora are shoaling fish that should have a group of five or six, no less. I have a group of Rosy Tetra, and while they are beautiful, I think they are too much for a 10g; a 20g long is in my view minimum size for this beautiful fish. They have a social structure that needs a group of males and females, 3 males and 2 females would work; they are not overly active by comparison to some fish like danios, but they attain 1.5 inches and need some space to move around and interact. Check out our fish profile (click the shaded name).

A group of 5-6 rasbora would be fine, with a bottom fish. And on these, the Yoyo loach you mention needs a group of at least 3 and this is going to be crowding them in a 10g. This species attains 6 inches in length, and needs space with hiding spots as mentioned in our profile although the size is not listed yet. Loaches are highly social fish; our profile does recommend minimum 3 or preferably 5, but in a 55g tank. If you like the yo-yo loach, a good replacement would be the dwarf loach, Yasuhikotakia sidthimunki which is very similar in patterning but as the name suggests smaller, 2.5 inches, and a group of 4 or even 5 in your 10g with the group of rasbora would create a nice SE Asian aquarium.

Expanding the fish you have, or replacing as with the loach, is going to fill your 10g tank. I would not add rummynose tetras to a 10g, they need swimming space. Interestingly, I just noticed neither species is included in our profiles; I was certain I wrote up the Rummynose profile, must have been for a thread I guess--will have to rectify this oversight.:shock:

Byron.
 
#12 ·
Thank you for your help Byron. You're awesome. What would you suggest I do with my two rosy tetras? I have 30wpg over my tank right now and I was reading your plant guide and you said that 1 wpg or less is sufficient fir the low tech aquaria which is what I would like to do. Would you reccomend my upgrading to a 20 high or a 29? The light fixture is 20 in. long. Do you think I could get away with hanging it bove the tank and having 5 in of space on each side? I will have a lot of time to make these changes if necessary because I turned my tibia and fibula into a banana last night at bball practice :(
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#13 ·
Thank you for your help Byron. You're awesome. What would you suggest I do with my two rosy tetras? I have 30wpg over my tank right now and I was reading your plant guide and you said that 1 wpg or less is sufficient fir the low tech aquaria which is what I would like to do. Would you reccomend my upgrading to a 20 high or a 29? The light fixture is 20 in. long. Do you think I could get away with hanging it bove the tank and having 5 in of space on each side? I will have a lot of time to make these changes if necessary because I turned my tibia and fibula into a banana last night at bball practice :(
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If a larger tank is possible, you can keep the Rosy Tetras and add to them when you have the larger tank. A group of 5-6 would be nice in a 29g. If you stay with the 10g, perhaps the fish store will take them in exchange; some will. If you do upgrade tanks, get the largest you can manage--meaning, that you have space for and can afford. The larger the tank, the more stable the water--and of course the more fishies:).

The watt per gallon is only a guide, and it works for regular fluorescent tubes over tanks that are around 30g and larger. On small tanks it is difficult to get less lighting. Hanging the light fixture above the tank is an option, but I personally don't like this because you then have the glare of the light when you sit to view the tank. I would stay with what you have and be prepared to have it on for less duration.

Sorry to hear of your sports inuries; hope you mend soon.

Byron.
 
#14 ·
So with the 3 wpg is 8 hours a day fine? It's on the same timer as my reef tank so I could turn it down to 7 if necessary. 8 is a little too much for a reef so it wouldn't be a problem. Thanks again Byron. Have you ever kept a reef before?
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#15 ·
So with the 3 wpg is 8 hours a day fine? It's on the same timer as my reef tank so I could turn it down to 7 if necessary. 8 is a little too much for a reef so it wouldn't be a problem. Thanks again Byron. Have you ever kept a reef before?
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Try the 8 hours, and if algae starts getting out of hand (remember, a bit of algae is natural and not an issue), be prepared to reduce the duration by one hour. As long as the plants are plenty, and nutrients are added, it may be fine.

I'm strictly freshwater.
 
#16 ·
Do you mind me asking why? I think freshwater is equally as beautiful as salt. But the thing I don't like about reefs if the super negative impact they have the actual reefs in the ocean. This oil spill is really going to mess up the Florida keys a lot. They are already finding huge tar balls in the keys already. On craigslist in my town there is a free 60 gallon tank. If I added all of my freshwater stuff into it and another 50 gallons would there be a cycle? Kind of a stupid question but I'm not sure.
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#17 ·
Do you mind me asking why? I think freshwater is equally as beautiful as salt. But the thing I don't like about reefs if the super negative impact they have the actual reefs in the ocean. This oil spill is really going to mess up the Florida keys a lot. They are already finding huge tar balls in the keys already. On craigslist in my town there is a free 60 gallon tank. If I added all of my freshwater stuff into it and another 50 gallons would there be a cycle? Kind of a stupid question but I'm not sure.
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I am not that keen on marine fish. When I visit the Vancouver Aquarium, which I frequently do, I almost never even go into the tropical saltwater section, but I spend hours in the freshwater area especially the walk-through Amazon gallery. I just find freshwater aquascapes interesting and beautiful.

When setting up a new tank, if you plant it reasonably heavily from the start, you can add fish and there will be no cycle. I have set up dozens of aquaria this way and never had ammonia or nitrite above zero. The plants grab the ammonia/ammonium even before the bacteria can get it, so in a well-planted tank the level of nitrifying bacteria is very low compared to non-planted tanks. I explain this in more detail in Part 2 of the series at the head of this section, here's a direct link: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...approach-natural-planted-aquarium-part-34859/

Without plants, you can jump-start the cycling by "seeding" which means adding substrate, filter media, wood, rocks etc. from an established aquarium. The nitrification bacteria colonize all surfaces under water, so moving any of these items is transferring bacteria, and provided there is a source of ammonia in the new tank the bacteria will use it and live.

Byron.
 
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