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cloudy water issue

8K views 25 replies 5 participants last post by  ADaleR1 
#1 ·
Just joined the site after finding this post. It's been a few years since I've had an aquarium and I loved my old planted one so decided to start again.
In my marineland 30g half-moon tank I'm using Flourish substrate, an underground filter in part of the tank, Coralife high output quad T5 fixture, and the Nutrafin CO2 activator and stabilizer little canister. Maintaining about a 6.8ph, 6dKH, 38 GH, 0 NO2 & NO3, and never peak beyond 20 NH3. I've been using jugs of drinking water purified by R/O and adding seachem discuss buffer and neutral buffer to maintain pH, and Kent's R/O Right to regain trace elements in the R/O water. First my plants were looking a little rough like they were missing some trace elements:


I was already using Flourish, but decided to add some root tabs. I went with the API tabs, not because of price, but because it appeared each tablet had more of the trace element I thought I was lacking. After inserting 10 tabs for the 30g tank, this is what I woke up to the next morning:


I did a 5 gal water change last night and still no luck. In fact, the above picture was taken this morning. For some reason I thought these were very slow dissolving tablets since they are supposed to last a month, or else I never would have placed them above an underground filter. The tank has been like this going on about 4/5 days now, and worst of all, it doesn't appear the plants are doing any better! Any advice on how I can fix both the water and the plant problem? Should I just stick with Seachem's liquid ferts like Trace, Flourish, and Excel from now on? Thanks

Dale Russell
 
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#2 ·
If you have one laying around I would try to throw and HOB or sponge filter on for a few days. (sponge filters are cheap, I just ordered one on Amazon for $15 including shipping) Those might help clear up the water better than your underground filter. Of course on top of daily/bi-daily water changes.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I did forget to mention that I also have a Marineland Penguin 150 with Bio-wheel and have the tank temp at around 78-79F.
The Penguin has 2 AC filters, or just 1 when I have the pillow softner in. The underground filter has one ammo chip head and AC on the other head.
 
#4 ·
Well then I'm stumped, I do know that usually you want to avoid any of that "water clarifying" stuff, which seems to be a pretty standard opinion on the boards, but maybe in this drastic of a case a small dose might help. Either that or just keep steady on your water changes. Good luck, that's looks pretty bad.
 
#5 ·
Well I see several problems here. First off I would stop using so many chemicals to try keeping you water stable. This can be done with out chemicals which is much safer for the fish and easier to do. First I would figure out what the hardness of your tab water is. If you have hard water you can cut the hardness with RO water to achieve the desire hardness. So many chemicals can be dangerous and some can react with each other.

Second since you are adding Co2 and have high output lights you are going to have to dose more fertilizer to help balance everything out. Excel is not going to do that as it is just a liquid form of C02 basically. Also flourish trace is just usually one trace element and not all that is needed. You really need to dose dry fertilizers to achieve what you are wanting. Google EI dosing to help find out what exactly to dose.

As for the cloudiness it looks like a bacteria bloom and water changes are not going to help it is just going to have to run its coarse. Water changes can just make it worse.
 
#6 ·
Thanks for the reply, but can you explain a little more? The only chemicals I'm currently using are the following:
Seachem Discuss & Neutral buffers for pH stabilization
Kent R/O Right to add proper trace back into the R/O water
Seachem Flourish
and then I added the API root tabs (not planning on doing this again)

What would you leave out? the EI stuff I've found almost makes it sound like I should be adding MORE stuff via liquid ferts. My tap water is extremely hard, even with my home water softner system it's still outputting around 15 dKH so I've gone to just using bottled R/O water. Based on the pictures of my plants the best I can tell is that I need more potassium and nitrogen ?? I'm not very good at plant diagnosis.

I'm trying to create conditions close to the Amazon river conditions, slightly acidic and soft. I have a couple of pieces of driftwood in the tank as well. From some of the posts I've read it sounds like I should use something besides the AC filter packets as they strip most of the stuff from the water. Does that check?

I considered the possible bacteria bloom, but my initial target was the root tabs since it bloomed overnight after adding the tabs. Any advice and recommendations are highly appreciated. I've already turned off the air stones for the underground filter.
 
#7 ·
I can get a dosing regime for you on the dry fertilizer. Just a question why are you using Seachem Discuss & Neutral buffers for pH stabilization? What does it do? Also I would stop using Kent R/O Right to add proper trace back into the R/O water. If you use EI dosing this will add the trace minerals back in.
Flourish? Is this flourish comprehensive?
 
#9 ·
Dry dosing
50% H20 change-weekly
1/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
1/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week
5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
Optional
1-2ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week

Trace Element and Iron, Plantex CSM+B, or flourish comprehensive
Fe/Iron Chelate 10%
 
#13 ·
Do you only recommend 'dry' dosing? I have Seachem Flourish ("Comprehensive Plant Supplement"), Seachem Flourish Trace, Flourish Potassium, and Flourish Nitrogen. Do you recommend not using these liquid ferts? I'm going to go get more R/O water this afternoon and will post those parameters. Also, what do you recommend for my filter? Ammo chip inserts rather than the AC? I miss my old fluval canister filter, not sure what is available in these little cartridge filters.
 
#11 ·
The API root tabs disolve super quick. I found this out once upon a time when I did not fully bury the tabs and my entire tank wen brownish and nearly opaque. Sounds similiar to your experience. As soon as I realized what had happened, I did a massive water change, making sure to rinse any floss or sponges in dechlorinated water. I added carbon to my filter, did very frequent and large water changes, and rinsed my floss/sponge every day. It was clear again in about a week. I never had a bacterial bloom, I never had changes to my parameters, and I didn't get any more algae than I had before. Hope this helps!
 
#14 ·
Side question for you. Why are you using the R/O water? I'm asking because I recently (last night) found the source of my high Nitrates. My tap water comes out between 20-30ppm Nitrate. I considered using some filtered R/O drinking water, but am leaning away from the idea due to the extreme difference in the GH/KH/PH/Trace Elements, from R/O water compared to what my tank has stabily been running from the tap for 5 years. Sounds like more work in a planted tank than it's worth (at least for me). Then again it appears we have two completely different setups. Mine is the natural low-tech while your's seems to be on the hi-tech side.
Thanks!
 
#15 ·
I'm using drinking water as well. Usually get it pre-packaged from Wal-Mart or the grocery store. It's the only way I could pull down my hardness. On the way to the store now to pick some more up and I'll post after I test it compared to my tap water. I'm trying to keep my water a little softer for the cardinals in my tank.
 
#16 ·
I'm trying to keep my water a little softer for the cardinals in my tank.
Got it :) that's what I was wondering, my water is on the hard side as well, but all the fish do fine in it. I'm thinking personally for me the higher nitrates are less of a hassle then all the dosing and treating you have to do. You must love those cardinals ;-)
 
#18 ·
ADale I think I need to clarify about fertilizer. I use flourish comprehensive on my tanks it works good on low tech tanks for supplying fertilizer. In high tech tanks (like yours with high lights and Co2) its best to use dry ferts as you get better results and its cheaper for those setups. You could still use liquid ferts if you like and if it is working. But by the looks of your plants it isn't is why I suggested a different approach.
 
#19 ·
Did a 50% water change tonight and I now see that somewhere I lost a Bosemani! Searched around but no fish remains to be found, of course it's very difficult to search when the water is so cloudy. Hoping the 50% water change helps keep things from getting too dangerous.

Also, I haven't started using anything except Flourish comprehensive, and only had that for a week. The rest of the liquid ferts have been ordered and are enroute. I was asking more if those were alright to use. I used Seachem products in the years past and seemed to have positive results. I'm not opposed to dry ferts, just never used them and would need to learn more before I try to jump in first.

My current filter is just an over the side with bio-wheel. Once I realized there were only AC cartridges for it I ordered the Marineland HOT Magnum pro canister with add-on bio wheel. Hopefully now I can get back to filtering without stripping my trace elements.

Here are the results of all my water tests
R/O drinking water: 6.8 pH, NH3/NH4, NO2, NO3 all 0, 1 dKH, 17.9 ppm GH/KH
Tap water: 7.7 pH, NH3/NH4, NO2, NO3 all 0, 10 dKH, 17.9 ppm GH/KH
tank after 50% wc: 6.6 pH, 1.0 NH3/NH4, 0.25 NO2, 0 NO3, 4 dKH, 35.8 ppm GH/KH

The ammonia and nitrite are both higher than they've been, and I'm thinking it's from the undiscovered dead fish. The only things I added to the water this time were Stress Coat, a Tblsp of aquarium salt, and a double dose of flourish comprehensive. I did notice during the water change that the lotus/lily bulb I planted in the back of the tank has taken off! If only I could figure out why my swords are so pathetic.
 
#20 ·
So 12 hours after the 50% wc, the tank has not gotten any worse, and is significantly better than before the wc. You can barely see 2 shoots of my tiger lotus shooting to the top in the back. This would lead me to believe it's not a bacteria bloom?


Also, now you can see the state of my swords. I'm hoping someone here can tell me what the deficiencies are. The swords appear to have new growth, but all the older leaves are wasting away. This originally led me to think I have a potassium and nitrogen deficiency. Does that check?
 
#21 ·
You may of already answered this, but did you buy those in tubes? If so I believe that is normal, the old leaves that were grown in emerged form will die off and new submerged leaves will grow in, I would leave them until they fully start to brown out then snip them off and see how the new leaves look as they come in.
 
#22 ·
Reading through this thread, there are some issues that mostly have been mentioned, so some of my comment will repeat.

I agree with the member who recommended not using the API tabs. If you have a Flourite substrate, tabs of any sort are completely un-necessary anyway, but API's have been known to cause a mess.

The Flourish line of nutrients will work, as has been mentioned, though down the road if you retain a high-tech system (adding CO2 and your very bright light) it would be better to go with dry ferts. But not now, as there are some issues here that should be resolved before messing further with the chemistry and biology.

The advice about emersed leaves on swords yellowing and new growth being the submersed form is correct. But I am also seeing evidence of an excess of iron. This is another reason I recommend not changing ferts yet.

But I would also take a step back. Assuming there are discus in this tank [is this correct?], I myself would not use CO2 diffusion, nor such bright light with so light-sensitive a fish [as are the cardinals by the way]. If the numbers posted for your tap water are correct, it is fine. And on those, is the GH actually 17.9 ppm? This is only 1 dGH, which is what I have in my tap water. The KH is higher at 10 dKH, but that can easily be solved by boiling out the bicarbonates. This would not affect the GH which RO water will, and you do need more GH if anything. This is one of the issues with the swords.

So my suggestion would be to stop the CO2, stop all the ferts going in, do major water changes to clear things up. Use a good water conditioner, nothing else except Flourish Comprehensive once a week. Test the GH, KH, pH. A stabilizer such as Seachem's Equilibrium wold be best to add some GH. We can discuss these lines further if you like.

Byron.
 
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#23 ·
Thanks guys, this is a great help. Yes, the plants did come from tubes, glad to know the fall off of the old leaves is normal!

Byron, no discus, just a few Bosemani and a dozen cardinals. I realize the cardinals don't like bright light, but when I used some type of online aquarium light calculator I found it didn't list my setup as bright light due to the height of my tank (28") and the lights are mounted another 8" or more above that. I also tried to make plenty of shaded area with rock and leaning driftwood, and was hoping a good growth of tall swords would provide more. I know on my old standard dimensional tank I had canned MH lights for a bright light setup and this tank doesn't seem nearly so bright as that. I have a 30" quad T5 using 2 10K bulbs and 2 Actinic bulbs. Would you consider that high output? I could take out one of the 10K bulbs if necessary. Why do you suggest stopping the CO2? Also I haven't used any other ferts besides Flourish Comprehensive (and only used that 1x a week for the past 2 weeks), I just ordered all the other ferts because I thought I needed them. Would the excess iron be a result of the root tabs + the fluorite substrate?

For testing of the GH I'm using API's KH and GH test kit. Granted the GH is really tough to measure with the color shades, but by the 2nd drop to the 5ml tube the color was definitely green and not orange, putting me at the bottom of the scale. That's why I was originally using Kent's R/O Right to add minerals back into the water. Given the parameters of my test water would you suggest mixing tap and R/O to maintain the lower pH I want, or do you recommend another method to lower pH? I'll look up more info on the boiling out the KH, never heard that before.

It's been several years since I've been in the hobby and there is no good local shop within a couple hours of me at my new base, so I appreciate all the knowledge you guys are passing on to get me back up to speed.
 
#24 ·
After reading your 4 pinned threads it sounds like I need to do the following:
1. remove air pump from aquarium, don't use bubble wall for ox or underground filter
2. probably remove one of the 10k T5 HO daylight bulbs from my fixture.
3. set a timer so there is 10 hours darkness (do the 2 blue led 'moonlights' count?), blue lights on for 2 hours, then daylight bulb also comes on for 10 hours, then blue lights remain on for 2 more hours to achieve the following: 10 dark, 12 blue, 10 daylight.
4. possibly remove the CO2?
 
#25 ·
My thinking on the CO2 was that it will obviously affect the water chemistry and as a means of getting things stable, it might be best not to have it. Which would mean fewer nutrients. And less light to balance. This would allow the biological state to settle down and then one can build up as needed.

Your GH is low and we don't want to lower it further which adding any form of RO or pure water will do. The KH being higher is interesting, I've forgotten now how that occurs, but it doesn't matter; reducing it a bit can be done by boiling the tap water which boils out bicarbonates but will not touch calcium and magnesium which are the primary hardness minerals. Once the KH is less, the pH will tend to lower more. This is safer on fish and less costly, than using preparations.

The iron issue is due to the lack of calcium. As Diana Walstad explains it, cell membranes have a phospholipid bilayer that is stabilized by calcium. When calcium is not available sufficient for this function, the plant takes up iron to displace the desired calcium, and this cause metal toxicity since iron is a very toxic heavy metal. It is also a micro-nutrient of course. It will be present in the substrate, it is in the Flourish Comprehensive, it might be in the tap water in trace amounts, and in the API tabs. All else being equal, plants can take up heavy metals which is one way they help purifying the water, but with a lack of calcium, the plant suffers. I have the same issue with my larger swords. My solution has been to add dolomite or aragonite to the filter, just a couple tablespoons, to increase the calcium and magnesium. Crushed coral also adds calcium. It doesn't take very much of any of these, and the pH will rise as well, so it would be best to get the KH down first.

The light has some issues. Actinic light is not the best for plants. While most will manage under it, some clearly do not do well. The other 10,000K tubes are also high in blue, so there is a real shortage of red, and while aquatic plants need blue and red to photosynthesize, the weight in on the side of red as the most important of the two, esp if you have red-leaf plants. Full spectrum (sort of enhanced daylight) tubes, at least two of them, would improve things for the plants.

On the CO2 issue, this is up to you. I obviously prefer the natural or low-tech approach, but that is only one approach. I have never bothered with CO2 because I can achieve what I basically want without it, so that means one less thing to cause issues. It also means I can have much less light, which I believe is better for all forest fish. Plus, i can use fewer nutrients to balance. There are some plants that I cannot keep for more than a few weeks, because my light isn't sufficient. I just don't bother with them once I try and they fail. I stay with what works. If you haven't yet, you might want to take a look at my tank photos under "Aquariums" below my name on the left.
 
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