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Algae!

6K views 39 replies 8 participants last post by  Byron 
#1 · (Edited)
I was hoping someone might have some answers for me.

My 15 gallon Goldfish tank has a hair algae problem. Not your typical hair algae issue, either. It grows on one wall of the tank, the filter intake, the plants, and the algae scrubber (which I almost never have to use). It is fully cycled and over 8 months old, using the same lighting since day one, which is Oddysea 24" with bluemoon LEDs for Freshwater (I made sure to buy freshwater). I hardly ever use the bluemoons because I have heard it's not that great for the tank, so I only use them once in a (lol) blue moon, just because it's so cool.

Now for the interesting part. As you can see below, it's likely not a nutrient issue, looking at the size of those plants. It's likely not CO2, due to the bubbler. I do realize that's really inefficient, but I can't afford any better. I haven't "changed" anything, I also only remember to do the water changes monthly, if I'm lucky. The largest fish is my Ryukin, whom is about 2 years old and no more than 3.5 inches. The Shubukin, about a year old, is not much shorter, but has a thinner shape, so is much smaller. I bought an otto to help with the non hair-algaes that my MTS won't clear out, and am considering a molly to mow down the hair, but I realize that can tip the scales in the other direction.

As for the tank stats, it is a 15 gallon TALL, sort of shaped like a thick picture frame. See pics below. The filtration is a non-main branded whisper trickle power filter rated for 40 gallon tanks. I have replaced the carbon section with cotton batton (hypoallergenic, no chemicals added, no dyes added). The filter media gets rinsed every couple weeks. For plants, there is tape grass (As you can see), Hornwort, which is an odd brown-green color and neither growing nor dying, Java moss which is growing like stinkweed, and some failing babies of water wisteria (or watersprite, I'm not sure). It won't root, it won't grow, and it dies off (which I believe tells me that the nutrients are still just fine), if a little low. The lights are 24" HOT5, and pump out 96 total watts for a watt per gallon of 6.5 (about). They stay on 10-14 hours depending on if I get home in time to turn them off. I make sure they get 12 hours of sleep every night and ensure the tank lights aren't on THAT long the next day if they end up staying on too long.

Every time I do a water change, which tends to be about 1/3 to 1/2, adding water conditioner (always!), the algae gets WORSE. I have tested with and without tap conditioner - no difference. I also add liquid plant fert with changes, and be a little on the lighter side, otherwise the algae gets worse. So, I light on the fert, but it doesn't make much of a difference. I also did have a loooooooong hair algae issue, but physical removal along with the fish eating it (and the Java moss and hornwort, lol) has destroyed the long strand hair algae. I now have short algae, and some green dust on the scrubber (and those salt water donutty shape circle things appearing out of nowhere). I did dose with salt for an ich outbreak, but that was due to new plant stress and me being out for the weekend. So, there is some low and almost non-existent levels of salt in there. I can add more, if recommended, as all plants seem to tolerate higher levels of salt. Here are the pics:


The full tank, on my home made shelf, sitting on my side table. Lol.



Mr Wiggles himself, being a camera hog, hovering my my face as he does every time I'm next to the tank. He even tries to eat my finger when I point at him through the glass. Kritterfish is in the corner there. I THINK that's a she; not sure. Mr Wiggles has tubercles, so.



Algae on the intake.



Off-color shot of the hornwort - the flash went off and the image was auto color corrected by my phone, lol.



The algae scrubber.


There are 3 types of algae present, if you can see them: the thin, scraggly green tufts that aren't more than 5mm long, the green spot/dust algae, and that really odd green, thick, tree-like THING that looks like spyrogira... Help?


EDIT: The white dots on the tape grass are bubbles - they collect on the algae, and sometimes release from the plants themselves...WHY, I have NO idea. Also, as you can see, my water is nowhere near yellow or green. It's crystal clear...
 
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#3 ·
I have tested with only having half the lights on; it makes no difference.
 
#5 ·
Two very small juvenile goldfish in a tank with a filter built for four times it's size...
 
#6 ·
Going a little off topic but I notice in your profile about the 33g tank.

This tank is not suitable for the fish you have in there. The hongi and bumblebee at some point will fight to the death.

ON TOPIC.

Crushed coral sand can be a nitrate factory if not vacuumed very well. It could be the algae outbreak is being caused by that. Another possibility is the slate, if the slate contains any felspar that will leech silicates into the water which can lead to bad algae outbreaks.

Try removing the slate and doing a big vacuum of the sand, a lot of that algae can just be cleaned off with a brush...if after removing the slate and vacuuming, if you notice the algae coming back then it is something else.
 
#8 ·
I did not know that about the slate! I just called it "slate" because it's flat and cut thin. I have no idea if it is slate or not. As for the coral being a nitrate factory, the tank is inundated with MTS for that purpose - but I will be a bit more proactive with monitoring the state of the coral. Also, the Ryukin is a sifter, so he is hoovering it constantly.

As for the Bumblebee, I'm only assuming that's what she is due to color (she could in fact be a kenyi), and so far she and the big male get along swimmingly. In fact, I've seen the Hongi male defending her and displaying to her (lol good luck horny fish). I will remove the slate and let you know.
 
#9 ·
Can you perhaps post a picture of the 33g? as you have what could be a female flavus also...if that is the case...you have a major war waiting to happen, not to mention they need a 75g minimum.
 
#10 ·
5 to 6 watts per gallon of T5HO lighting will bring algae, especially with lighting period of more than eight hours.
CO2 becomes limiting factor,followed by nutrient's with this much light, and what little is being produced by bacterial breakdown and fish respiration is being off gassed by the bubbler which I might run only at night when plant's use oxygen rather than produce it such as they do during the day.
Two 24 inch full spectrum T8 bulbs would be my choice for this tank without CO2 injection,Excel,or Easy Carbo, and I would place light's on timer for eight hour photo period and see if this did not bring improvement.
Without CO2 enhancement and current lighting ,,,alage and more of it will likely persist.
 
#11 · (Edited)
A not trying to hijack your thread either...am offering advice :)

I would try the slate first and clean as much algae as you can from the tank..if after a few weeks no more algae comes back then problem solved.

I have seen it countless times where fish stores have slate slabs or rocks with mineral deposits in them...the mineral deposits are what causes the algae outbreaks.
The only ones I would truly trust are either rocks I know are aquarium safe, or those attached to driftwood and other ornaments as they are true slate.

It could also be the photo period of your tank is too long as mentioned...even if you reduce it, it will not cure it, as the algae is already there.
 
#12 · (Edited)
wow, misread the original post somewhat.

Convinced now it is your lights causing the outbreak...that is an awful lot of light for a small tank like that.

I have 2 24" T5HO lights on my 75g and 6 on my 180g tank..one on a 15g is way way too much.
 
#13 ·
Strange - Employee at the LFS said the lighting and inhabitants were fine - because I asked specifically. I can turn only one pair of lights on at a time, but I can't afford new lighting, even at Oddysea prices. Convert to salt? Lol. No.

Here are the requested pics:


Full tank - blurry. The babies are all hiding, the male is off courting one of the girls. Lol.



Right side, with my mondo condo. Lol.



Middle, the swimming and plant space/barrier.



The far right, lower light, subdued, baby-cave side. They like being near the big male, oddly enough.



Female Yellow in question...I think Bumble or Kenyi...



Miss Jewel. Being a dork and dominating the fake cave that she never rests in...xD



Annnnd the...Flavus? Girl? Idk? I was just guessing...



Fully colored...



Another angle...


Also, that's not algae on the side...that's water dried up that I haven't bothered cleaning off.
 
#14 ·
Tank looks very nice by the way..plenty of places for fish to hide and chill out in.

First of all never take anything a LFS tells you in..99.9% of the time they want your money. Research and ask questions on forums is the best way to do it...that is far too much lighting for a small tank. I would put T5HO on a 55g tank and above nothing smaller unless it was a nano reef tank. Not only can it lead to algae problems but also temperature problems by overheating the water.

Now to the cichlids...Pseudotropheus crabro (bumblebee) and hongi will likely be a mini war if the crabro decides it wants to be be mean, which most of the time it can and will turn on a dime.

The other fish, it is too young to be able to give a definitive answer as to what it might be...I am not going to say what they are as I could be wrong....although it is showing strong characteristics of being a flavus, in which case you have major problems ahead...there are a couple others that it could be, but only time will tell.
 
#15 ·
I also agree that light is your algae issue. Light has to be balanced by nutrients, and if the light exceeds the available nutrients algae will increase.

Reducing the duration can often help. But when the light intensity itself is greater that what balances the nutrients, algae will still persist.
 
#17 · (Edited)
In the LFS's defense, I bought the lights, AND the plants elsewhere. I use aquatraders for lights for the savings, and I got the plants on usedeverywhere... I also personally know the LFS owners, and usually get the real information from the staff who know who I am (as well as good prices). These two were from their "assorted pseudos" tank and she identified them as such (and before you think they could be interbred, they come from the shipper individually packaged as "Pseudo, asst", so they really have no choice but to do the same thing, and they go so fast there's no chance of interbreeding, and I never buy the tiny ones for that reason...). I think the new girl there was incorrect, she's still going through their mandatory 6 month training (yes, seriously, they make them go through a crash course in all their live stock). But, again, I have not seen a growth of algae since it arrived - it's just been sitting there, since I clean the glass off.


But since I was recommended to remove the slate, I recently re-did the tank, and it occurred to me: couldn't I just buy something high-light high-nutrient requirement? But here's the new set up, after I pulled off the algae-infested tape grass pieces, and the suffocated dead stuff (and stole some for my son's empty invert tank, Lol).


Slightly out of focus. Bubbler is off at the moment. I can't sleep with the BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ by my head....Lol. Turning it on at night would happen for about 3 hours until we buy more line to route it to the other side of the bedroom.



The cannon, taken over by Java moss - Yay, now I can see it! I've even arranged a tiny little gap at the bottom for the one cherry shrimp that must have come from my son's tank.



The grass, on the far wall, with dead live rock (I know, not good, I didn't know any better - it's been in fresh for almost a year now, so any leaking is all done with, lol...)

Edit: Also, the "Flavus" has been spotted displaying like the make hongi (on side, vibrating) for the female Hongis in the tank, and has been coloring up to almost a pure silver-yellow-white color on pure black stripes....So now I don't know if she is a she anymore. xD! But she is 4" long - that's still young?

Also, I can shut off half the lights and alternate which pair get used. I will do that as well.
 
#18 ·
If you can only have one fixture on, that will reduce the light intensity by half and help.
 
#19 ·
Yes; the fixture has two ballasts and two separate switches. Is the half lighting (48 watts, 3.2 watts per gallon) too low? Also, the spectrum of the stock Oddysea lights, could they be the wrong spectrum? I have a 2 bulb fixture on the 33 and the plants don't do so well...

Would getting something like red ludwiga or Rotala be appropriate addition to help out, if I were to do changes more frequently (to monitor fish waste)? Or would it be better to kidnap more cherry shrimp, or buy a molly?
 
#20 ·
Yes; the fixture has two ballasts and two separate switches. Is the half lighting (48 watts, 3.2 watts per gallon) too low?
Watts is not a very reliable guide, due to all the different types of lighting now available, with most of it being more "energy efficient" which means less energy (watts is just the measure of the amount of energy used to light the tube) producing more and more intensity. For the plants you have, yes, half the light will be more than enough. Youo need to find that balance between light and nutrients.

Also, the spectrum of the stock Oddysea lights, could they be the wrong spectrum? I have a 2 bulb fixture on the 33 and the plants don't do so well...
Spectrum is important. What are the tubes?

Would getting something like red ludwiga or Rotala be appropriate addition to help out, if I were to do changes more frequently (to monitor fish waste)? Or would it be better to kidnap more cherry shrimp, or buy a molly?
Yes, red leaf plants need more light because they reflect the red light and red is crucial to photosynthesis. Also, fast growing plants help. And floating plants. Water Sprite would thrive in this tank.
 
#21 · (Edited)
They are HOT5, the stock bulbs from Aquatraders. They look white to me. Also, oddly, Wisteria/Watersprite dies in this tank - quickly. I can't even get it to the planting stage. Figure that one out, Lol. Also, my Hornwort is free floating, it's just....on the bottom. Why, I don't know.
 
#22 ·
You'll have to find the data before I can comment on their quality. Whatever is printed at one end of the tube may help. I need something to look up.

Stem plants being fast growing require good nutrition as well as light. What fertilizers are being used in the Wisteria and Hornwort tank?
 
#23 ·
#24 · (Edited)
Nutrafin Plant Gro.

Here is exactly what I bought:
Odyssea T5 Aquarium Lighting

As for what's on the bulbs, it says 6500k daylight.
This is going to sound like one of those broken records... If that is the fixture over your 33g, it is 3 if not 4 times too much light. Now i see why the Wisteria and Hornwort are not doing well. The nutrients are probably no where near that level. And I assume there is no CO2 diffusion on the 33? The spectrum is fine.

With that much light, you need CO2, and daily dosing of nutrients. Nutrafin Plant-Gro is not really intended for this high a level. I do not have any high-tech tanks so I'm not the best to recommend things for this, but if you retain that light I would consider this.

Plants can only grow when everything they need is available in balance. Light of the required intensity and spectrum, plus all 17 nutrients. As soon as any one of these is no longer available, plants will slow their photosynthesis and if the nutrient is a major one may stop altogether. What we term the limiting factor to growth. And then when light continues past that point, algae takes advantage. Nutrients need to be somewhat balanced, since plants need varying amounts of each, and some in excess can cause plants to alter their uptake of others. As ust one example, a shortage of calcium will cause an increase of iron to the point that it kills the leaves. And an excess of potassium can cause the plant to stop assimilating iron, so it then has an iron deficiency.
 
#25 ·
Okay...The 33 has two bulbs, not 4...It's not got any problems algae wise.

The 15g has the 24" light on it like that, and the Hornwort just won't float. It grows fine, but the goldfish eats it, lol. It breaks even. It's just wisteria that doesn't grow - everything else grows fine.

In terms of plant food, then, what should I be using? I just grabbed it because of the price, lol.


And no, I have no CO2 injection of any kind going on - I can't afford it at all. I have a bubbler, plant food, water conditioner/heavy metal remover, and food. I might be able to get a UV sterilyser from Aquatraders, since that's fairly inexpensive.
 
#26 ·
Okay...The 33 has two bulbs, not 4...It's not got any problems algae wise.

The 15g has the 24" light on it like that, and the Hornwort just won't float. It grows fine, but the goldfish eats it, lol. It breaks even. It's just wisteria that doesn't grow - everything else grows fine.

In terms of plant food, then, what should I be using? I just grabbed it because of the price, lol.


And no, I have no CO2 injection of any kind going on - I can't afford it at all. I have a bubbler, plant food, water conditioner/heavy metal remover, and food. I might be able to get a UV sterilyser from Aquatraders, since that's fairly inexpensive.
First, you don't need CO2 to have lush plant growth. Just look at the photos of my tanks under "Aquariums" below my name on the left. If that isn't proof, then none exists.:lol: You also don't need a UV sterilizer; you want the aquarium to be naturally balanced, so let nature do the work.

But you do need that all-important balance. Nutrients occur naturally from water changes (depending how hard your tap water is, this is an important source of calcium, magnesium, potassium, sulfur, and perhaps others--more on this later) and fish foods. Waste from the fish contain all the minerals plants need, and as the waste organics break down in the substrate it feeds the plants. But sometimes we need to add missing nutrients, or increase some of them. In a natural or low-tech system--meaning one that does not have CO2 added, and has minimal light--the best way is with a complete balanced fertilizer. There are two I am personally aware of, Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement and Brightwell Aquatics' FlorinMulti. According to the list of nutrients, they are near-identical. There may be other products I am not aware of, but these two are worth it. If you buy either, make sure you get the named product, as both manufacturers make several different products under their respective names. You will actually find these less expensive long-term, because you use so little. Example, the Nutrafin Plant-Gro recommends 5ml (1 teaspoon) per 10g weekly; Flourish Comp is 5ml per 60g weekly--so you use 6 times more Nutrafin than Flourish.

Goldfish eat soft plants, and they love hornwort, so you can't solve that. Consider it part of their healthy diet. As for the Wisteria, try something else. Not all plants will grow together, what we refer to as allelopathy; plants release chemicals into the water, and botanists believe some of these are to deter other species, and some are known to possibly deter some types of algae too. This is not a well-documented area so most recommend that if a particular plant is not doing well, remove it and try another. This is also the best advice if the issue is light or water parameters or nutrients or fish; stay with plants that do well under your conditions. The same applies with plants as with fish: those that work together will result in a more successful aquarium. I can't grow Wisteria, so I don't try any longer.

I mentioned minerals in your tap water. Don't use heavy metal detoxifiers unless you really need to or it can't be avoided. The level of heavy metals--and some of these are important plant nutrients such as copper, iron, zinc, manganese and nickel--in municipal water will be safe for humans. While these levels might not be "safe" for fish, in planted tanks the plants will readily take them up mainly as nutrients but also as toxins. Plants are remarkable in their ability to take up toxins. If the heavy metal detoxifier is just part of the water conditioner--and most (with a few exceptions) conditioners do detoxify heavy metals--dose the fertilizer the day following the water change. Water conditioners only work for 24-36 hours, and they will detoxify these minerals in a fertilizer too, so wait a day.

Back to the light; two T5 tubes over a 33g run as a natural system is too much light. My 33g (photo below) has one 30-inch T8 tube, which is about 1/3 the light intensity of two T5 tubes. Things are balanced.

Hope this is of some help, don't hesitate to question further.

Byron.
 

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#27 ·
I don't use near that amount of plant fert either, because every time I do, I get brutal algae outbreak, so I only do a half dose at water change with the metal remover (which I just learned from elsewhere is NOT A GOOD IDEA...), so I will ditch the metal remover and see how it goes. I have no idea what my water is like here; I live by the coast in Victoria, BC, Canada - if anyone knows, the knowledge would be great. Lol.

So, comprehensive thoughts here:

1) Remove the slate (done, but the 33 still has flat rocks with no algae, they all came out of the garden)
2) Reduce Lighting (done)
3) Only use the bubbler at night (can't remember to turn it on, so it's perma-off)
4) Buy better Plant Food (will do when we get more money, probably not happening until march, and once this bottle is dead and gone, and I've had it over a year, lol)
5) Get a high nutrient requiring plant such as rotala or ludwiga (When I can FIND one in my LFS - being canadian means Dr Foster and Smith/liveaquaria doesn't SHIP TO ME. *Grumblebitch*)


Just leaving one question...SHOULD I pick up a molly, or zebra snail, or leave it be?
 
#28 ·
I don't use near that amount of plant fert either, because every time I do, I get brutal algae outbreak, so I only do a half dose at water change with the metal remover (which I just learned from elsewhere is NOT A GOOD IDEA...), so I will ditch the metal remover and see how it goes. I have no idea what my water is like here; I live by the coast in Victoria, BC, Canada - if anyone knows, the knowledge would be great. Lol.

So, comprehensive thoughts here:

1) Remove the slate (done, but the 33 still has flat rocks with no algae, they all came out of the garden)
2) Reduce Lighting (done)
3) Only use the bubbler at night (can't remember to turn it on, so it's perma-off)
4) Buy better Plant Food (will do when we get more money, probably not happening until march, and once this bottle is dead and gone, and I've had it over a year, lol)
5) Get a high nutrient requiring plant such as rotala or ludwiga (When I can FIND one in my LFS - being canadian means Dr Foster and Smith/liveaquaria doesn't SHIP TO ME. *Grumblebitch*)


Just leaving one question...SHOULD I pick up a molly, or zebra snail, or leave it be?
I used to live in Victoria, in the 1980's, and had several fish tanks. The water is very soft and slightly acidic, or was then. They may be doing something now, like they do here in Vancouver, to raise pH. You should find their website and get the GH, KH and pH numbers. This is crucial to working out what is needed.

Because, livebearers will not last long in soft water. I had a tank of molly and also some rift lake cichlids, both of which need hard water, and I used dolomite crushed gravel for the substrate. We can go more into this when you post the numbers, in case the water is being adjusted now.

Don't know what stores are around now, the one I used back then was one of the best I have ever come across but I remember it closed in the early 1990's. It was owned by a hobbyist. There is/was Specht's in the Hillside Mall, if it is still there.

You don't need bubblers, even at night. It will drive off valuable CO2 which builds up during the night.
 
#29 · (Edited)
It seems that Victoria does have soft water, but I have crushed coral to help this - I did have slate/flat rock pieces, but those got taken out... Is there anything else I can add to harden the water? http://www.crd.bc.ca/water/waterquality/faq.htm

Heavy Metal in drinking water Water for life Victoria BC British Columbia Canada Lead in water This just says we also have heavy metals in the water - which, a few months ago, prompted me to use the metal remover, not knowing this was unnecessary.

My son and I were out with my husband yesterday, and to kill time we went in to Petcetera. For being such a good boy, (he's six, and didn't complain once about walking and didn't ask for a thing), we bought his invert only 10 gallon a little feeder that he fell in love with, lol. Of course, they also had Mollies on sale, and because he'd heard I might need one, my lovely husband bought him for me. :lol:

So now we have Shadow, the male Black Molly - whom is making short work of everything, albeit a little stressed. Should I salt the tank (very slowly, since I have a baby Otto in there as well?)
 
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