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Adding plants during fish less cycling?

35K views 13 replies 5 participants last post by  never quit 
#1 ·
Is it OK to add live plants during the cycling? This is the beginning of the second week of the cycle. The ammonia is at 5ppm, ph is 7.6, kh and gh both report 100. Would this help accelerate the process? I'm using swimming pool sand for the substrate and a canister filter. It's a 55 gallon tank.

Thanks
Never Quit
 
#2 ·
Absolutely! Actually, if you add enough plants then you can add 2-3 hardy fish right away. The plants will eat up the Ammonia turning it into a safer form. When I say enough, I don't mean one or two plants and adding no more then 2-3 hardy fish until it is cycled.
 
#3 ·
+1 even in a fishless cycle the plants will do well. Heck I don't even cycle anymore, when I redo a tank I only start with a really light stocking for the tank size, and put tons of plants in, monitor water quality, if ammonia goes over .25 then I add in more plants, so at most my tanks do a light mini cycle. My favorite plants for this are anarchris, hornswart and duckweed. Though most people don't like duck weed for the fact it multiplies to quickly and is hard to get rid of, this is exactly the reason I use it, the faster a plant multiplies or grows the more nutrients it absorbs.
 
#4 ·
Fast growing plant's and lot's of em would be needed, or I fear with 5ppm ammonia, plus light left on too long, or too much light..would result in large algae bloom.
That's a lot of ammonia for newly established plant's to uptake, much more than would be found in most tapwater.
In my expierience thus far, light plus excess ammonia nearly always result's in algae and lot's of it.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Agree. You need to keep light minimal. No mention is made of light--what type do you have (please be specific, including type, watts, kelvin, etc). A shorter duration at the beginning will achieve this balance better, then you can gradually lengthen it as fish and nutrients are added.

I just came across the other thread on this tank and spotted something. When you put the plants in, don't add any more ammonia. In fact, I would do a water change to dilute it. Once the tank is reasonably well planted, and the ammonia reads zero, add a few fish to get things going. The plants grab the ammonia and there is no discernable cycle.

Byron.
 
#6 ·
Thanks for the feedback...As far as plants, I was considering buying a bunch of plants from Thatfishplace. They have "plant packages" and I was considering the "jungle assortment". Since we have only a few petshops in the area and not too many plants, I'll buy online. Anybody have recommendations of where to buy and what to buy? OK, as far as the lighting , it's a perfecto light assembly with TWO 48" 32 watt T 8 bulbs with 5500K.
How much of a water change should I do, or rather, what ammonia level should I achieve? I just took a reading before writing this and it's 5 ppm.
Oh, one more thing: I want to put a piece of wood in the center and a few plants anchored to it.....Is there a "best" type of drift wood?
Trust me, I don't want to be a pain, but asking these same questions to a fish store guy and we both know you'll get different answers, and he/she may not have YOUR best interest in mind.

Thanks again for your help
Never Quit
 
#7 ·
The light is fine. Once you have the tank planted, you will have to experiment a bit with duration of the light, balance with nutrients, to prevent excessive algae. But remember that algae is common in newer tanks because the water is unstable; once established (and this is not the same as cycled), it is easier to find the balance.

Until you have the plants, I would continue what you're doing, but not add more ammonia. When the plants arrive, you can do a water change. And as I said before, once the plants are in and ammonia is zero, add a few fish. Something you want in this tank, but preferably not a super-sensitive species.

For wood, I highly recommend the dark brown/almost black heavy wood that I've seen under names like Mangrove Root, Ironwood, Malaysian Driftwood. This is ideal. It is heavy enough to immediately sink. It has tannins but not bad, and if you soak it or boil it first, these are reduced further. And it seems free of fungus issues. I have a lot of it, all the wood in my tank photos is this stuff.

Byron.
 
#8 ·
Thanks Byron: So let me ask you this; What I would do is leave the lights on 8 hours/day and use plant food, then monitor the situation. If the algae starts to build up, what's the best way to getting rid of it? Should i cut back on the light or plant food? How would you define "established water" as compared to "unstable water" since they're not the same as cycling?
When I get some plants what level should I lower the ammonia to? Should I continue with the cycle process and consider it complete when the nitrates spike?
 
#9 ·
Thanks Byron: So let me ask you this; What I would do is leave the lights on 8 hours/day and use plant food, then monitor the situation. If the algae starts to build up, what's the best way to getting rid of it? Should i cut back on the light or plant food? How would you define "established water" as compared to "unstable water" since they're not the same as cycling?
When I get some plants what level should I lower the ammonia to? Should I continue with the cycle process and consider it complete when the nitrates spike?
The plants will handle the ammonia at reduced level, which it will be by then and with a water change. Fish should not go in with ammonia above zero, but once that is reached add some fish to provide ammonia and you're set.

As plants are now in the picture, I would not "continue" cycling by adding ammonia. Just leave what's there. For one thing, with live plants you do not want much biological filtration, so don't encourage it. The whole idea of plants is they do all the filtration, and if fish are balanced with plants and volume, they can. The filter is just a means of clearing the water (removing particulate matter, different from "cleaning") and moving it around a bit.

Your first question we should review again when you have the tank planted (the type of plants has a bearing on nutrients). And I would need to know about the planned fish. And your tap water hardness. Nutrients come from all these, plus of course fish food.

Established means the tank's biology is fairly stable, and this usually (should) occur after 2-3 months. Fish load is balanced with water volume, plants. Nitrates are steady (probably low, with plants), and pH is stable. The hardness of the tap water again has a bearing on this, as the KH buffers the pH. Other things impact too, like wood, substrate type. I guess with me it is almost a "feeling" I get from observing the tank, I seem to sense it is or isn't balanced. Hard to explain.
 
#10 ·
Hi Byron: That's really interesting! So, when I get the plants, I'll do a water change aiming for 2 ppm ammonia in the tank. Then let the plants acclimate to the water and the stress of replanting. Then I'll add several fish. It'll mostly be common tropical fish, nothing exotic or super expensive.
Is it fair to say you can create a biological filtration by either having live plants OR having nitates remove the nitrites?
So, let me ask you this: Could you create a biologically balanced new tank, that would be fish friendly, just by planting live plants and feeding the plants?
I find this really interesting Byron, if there's any articles out there that describe this, let me know...I don't want to waste your time...with all these questions, because I'm going to have a lot more once I get the tank established and going!
Thanks again, you're a wealth of knowledge!
Never Quit
 
#11 ·
Hi Byron: That's really interesting! So, when I get the plants, I'll do a water change aiming for 2 ppm ammonia in the tank. Then let the plants acclimate to the water and the stress of replanting. Then I'll add several fish. It'll mostly be common tropical fish, nothing exotic or super expensive.
When the plants arrive, I would do a major water change; idea is to remove all ammonia, but whatever little is left after this, the plants will handle. I would also have some liquid fertilizer on hand to dose the tank the first day. Some say do this, others don't. I always do. Plants need nutrients, and in a new tank with no organics to create nutrients, I think it best to add some. I recommend Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Suplement as the best; it only takes a very small amount, for a 55g this would be 1/2 teaspoon once a week. Make sure it is Flourish Comprehensive, they make several different products under the "Flourish" name.

Is it fair to say you can create a biological filtration by either having live plants OR having nitates remove the nitrites?
I always plant new tanks and add fish the same day I set it up, and I haven't lost anything yet. Ammonia and nitrite are zero, or at any rate undetectable with the API test. The plants handle it. There are also probably a lot of bacteria on the plants and wood, since I tend to move these from existing tanks, and bacteria will colonize all surfaces under water. I tend to advise others to go slow, to be safe. But I can set up a 115g aquarium with new filter/media and substrate in one day and have it running by the end of the day with 90+ fish in it. As long as you know what you're doing, this is easy.


So, let me ask you this: Could you create a biologically balanced new tank, that would be fish friendly, just by planting live plants and feeding the plants?
The tank would be fish-ready and they would be fine, as explained in the two previous responses. The "established" takes time regardless. In any "new" tank the biology has to sort itself out, and as I mentioned earlier many factors influence this, from the water params, number and type of fish, number and type of plants, substrate and decor, filtration, light, fish food, etc. During the initial break-in towards establishment, there will be some fluctuation in water conditions, and there are some fish that do not adjust to this, so we wait before adding those.

I find this really interesting Byron, if there's any articles out there that describe this, let me know...I don't want to waste your time...with all these questions, because I'm going to have a lot more once I get the tank established and going!
Thanks again, you're a wealth of knowledge!
Never Quit
Thank you. We all learn from asking; I am still learning after 20 years of fish. I learn from others on this forum and research; in life we never stop learning.

Byron.
 
#12 ·
Byron: Thanks for the information...EXCELLENT! I have one question, that may be tough to answer: I'm about to get some plants for the 55....HOW MANY plants would I need to maintain a biologically balanced tank? I would think that's a tough question...I think it would be the product of species and size. That being said, can I use my intuitive notion, and looking at the planted tank say "Yes, that looks like the density of plants isn't too great." On the other side of that coin, I think it would be possible to overstock with plants. In that situation you could look at the fish and see they have no room to swim. Are there any pictures on line that would show what a good, healthy planted tank looks like?
Thanks again
Never Quit
 
#13 ·
Well, look at the photos under "Aquariums" below my name on the left.

You partly answered your own question; the number of plants does depend upon what they are. I tend to put in more than will be needed later, and then remove some later (to other tanks). I like substrate-rooted plants because you plant them and that's it, they grow without any fussing. Swords are perfect for this; Vallisneria esp the Corkscrew Vallisneria, pygmy chain sword, crypts (though fussy with water fluctuations), and some others as accent.

Stem plants need regular trimming, some more than others, and higher light, so i shy away from most. Brazilian Pennywort though is a marvel; I bought one small cluster of 3-4 stems 2 years ago, and it took a while but once it settled and started to grow, wow. Since then I have tossed out enough to plant dozens of tanks. It is great floating.

Fish swimming room has to be considered; know what fish you intend, then buy plants accordingly. Click the shaded names above to see the plant profile, and browse the others for ideas.
 
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