Whater changes ...Whats everyone's preferred method? - Page 4
Tropical Fish

Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources » Freshwater Fish and Aquariums » Beginner Freshwater Aquarium » Whater changes ...Whats everyone's preferred method?

Whater changes ...Whats everyone's preferred method?

This is a discussion on Whater changes ...Whats everyone's preferred method? within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> OK. I'll bite. I believe it may have been me that suggested that many of our aquarium fishes nowday's are being raised in water's ...

Check out these freshwater fish profiles
Leopard Ctenopoma
Leopard Ctenopoma
Discus
Discus
Like Tree39Likes

Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools vBmenu Seperating Image Search this Thread vBmenu Seperating Image
Whater changes ...Whats everyone's preferred method?
Old 12-06-2012, 02:24 PM   #31
 
1077's Avatar
 
OK. I'll bite.
I believe it may have been me that suggested that many of our aquarium fishes nowday's are being raised in water's far removed from what they would see in the wild and as such,,,they either adapt to the water or they don't.
The fact that their natural water's may be low in TDS, or nitrates, is something for us to perhap's to strive for, but not realistic in many area's ,or in closed system's such as our's that rely on ever increasing pollution tainted sources for water replenishment.
As I mentioned the other day in another thread,Everything we add to the tank from Dechlorinator,Bacterial supplement's,fertilizer's,fish food's, increases the TDS.Would you stop adding dechlorinator's,fish food's with the metal's ,phosphates,animal protein's,etc, buffering agent's such as the Equilibrium that you and other's use?
Not much different in my view between fishes that adapt or don't,,,and the bacterial pathogen's that we see becoming more and more resistent to those antibiotic's that used to work.
Is a fluid situation pardon the pun.
Personally,,I would be more fearful of dirty organic rich tank's where little to no maint is performed,before I began sweating over a few extra ml of Prime during water change.
It is the lesser of two evil's (Way less).
lakemalawifish likes this.
1077 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 02:51 PM   #32
 
Thank you 1077 for your insight. Byron, we are not trying to gang up on you. We are just trying to understand the importance of certain issues and how they relate to our fish. 95% of our fish are wild caught or F1 Lake Malawi Cichlids. Our wild caught fish source has them imported, he very carefully treats them for parasites and acclimates them to life in a fish tank environment. Even after we purchase them, some of the more delicate species have to be drip acclimated to the tank environment that we are putting them into. These fish are the most beautifully colored fish I have ever seen, second to saltwater fish. I believe that the people on this forum are doing everything they can to take proper care of their fish, to the best of their knowledge and ability, or they would not be here attempting to learn more from others in order to keep their fish healthy, happy and as stress free as possible. When you throw curve balls regarding TDS into the equation, that quite honestly you have failed to successfully back up thus far in my opinion, and then start bad-mouthing companies like Seachem who I am sure have scientists and biologist with multiple degrees who design and formulate products they sell to ensure their safety, that is where I have a big problem.
lakemalawifish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 03:33 PM   #33
 
Bluewind's Avatar
 
I think it's wonderful that we are on a forum that people are so pasionate and well informed about fishkeeping. Where questions can be asked and many different opinions can be given which the OP can then research and find the best approach for them. I like facts and good information. I want this place to be just that.
Posted via Mobile Device
Byron and lakemalawifish like this.
Bluewind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 03:34 PM   #34
 
Byron's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1077 View Post
OK. I'll bite.
I believe it may have been me that suggested that many of our aquarium fishes nowday's are being raised in water's far removed from what they would see in the wild and as such,,,they either adapt to the water or they don't.
The fact that their natural water's may be low in TDS, or nitrates, is something for us to perhap's to strive for, but not realistic in many area's ,or in closed system's such as our's that rely on ever increasing pollution tainted sources for water replenishment.
As I mentioned the other day in another thread,Everything we add to the tank from Dechlorinator,Bacterial supplement's,fertilizer's,fish food's, increases the TDS.Would you stop adding dechlorinator's,fish food's with the metal's ,phosphates,animal protein's,etc, buffering agent's such as the Equilibrium that you and other's use?
Not much different in my view between fishes that adapt or don't,,,and the bacterial pathogen's that we see becoming more and more resistent to those antibiotic's that used to work.
Is a fluid situation pardon the pun.
Personally,,I would be more fearful of dirty organic rich tank's where little to no maint is performed,before I began sweating over a few extra ml of Prime during water change.
It is the lesser of two evil's (Way less).
I can't disagree with this. I would simply say that knowing this to be the case, we should work to reduce the "toxins" as much as possible--and not go adding more without good reason. These include the organics [obviously the planted tank enters into this] and TDS [and bear in mind, that your high organics are part of the total solids which are TSS and TDS--but I won't get into that here [I am drafting an article on this now, to hopefully explain this as was requested of me]. So in a sense, there is not two evils, just one--total solids. And eliminating as many as we can is the goal.

Yes I add conditioner and Equilibrium and fish food, all of which contribute to the TDS. But I don't over-load with any. Only what is essential. As with medicines for fish and humans, more than the necessary dose is not better, but worse.
lakemalawifish likes this.
Byron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 03:40 PM   #35
 
Byron's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakemalawifish View Post
Thank you 1077 for your insight. Byron, we are not trying to gang up on you. We are just trying to understand the importance of certain issues and how they relate to our fish. 95% of our fish are wild caught or F1 Lake Malawi Cichlids. Our wild caught fish source has them imported, he very carefully treats them for parasites and acclimates them to life in a fish tank environment. Even after we purchase them, some of the more delicate species have to be drip acclimated to the tank environment that we are putting them into. These fish are the most beautifully colored fish I have ever seen, second to saltwater fish. I believe that the people on this forum are doing everything they can to take proper care of their fish, to the best of their knowledge and ability, or they would not be here attempting to learn more from others in order to keep their fish healthy, happy and as stress free as possible. When you throw curve balls regarding TDS into the equation, that quite honestly you have failed to successfully back up thus far in my opinion, and then start bad-mouthing companies like Seachem who I am sure have scientists and biologist with multiple degrees who design and formulate products they sell to ensure their safety, that is where I have a big problem.
I am working on an article for total solids in between posting here. I should have it finished today, and will post it in the Freshwater Articles section and link to it in this thread. I like to have the whole picture, and you seem to be similar, which is good, so bear with me and you will see my understanding and approach to this.

As for Seachem, I have high regard for them, or I wouldn't use their products. But I do disagree that one should nedver point out the truth for fear of somehow maligning this or any company. What I have stated about Seachem is fact, and if anyone can prove otherwise, do so.

Byron.
lakemalawifish likes this.
Byron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 04:58 PM   #36
pop
 
Hello:
I have been considering using Prime conditioner but when I am at the LFS I just canít seem to force myself to purchase the product. I donít believe that adding manufactured substances is necessary or prudent.

Bryon in my opinion is correct about a possible negative effect of excessive Total Dissolved Solids. Just because a product is on the market and appears to work will not necessarily indicate there are no negative aspects using it.

Generally speaking all people are prone to discovering facts that support predetermined conclusions. This includes me and the makers of Prime and other water conditioning products.
pop
pop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 07:46 PM   #37
 
jeaninel's Avatar
 
Pop, you don't use a water conditioner when you do water changes?
Posted via Mobile Device
jeaninel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 08:08 PM   #38
 
Byron's Avatar
 
Missed this post earlier, only found it when I went back to check something. I only have a couple comments.

Quote:
People with planted tanks have completely different concerns and practices than those with non-planted tanks. Planted tanks are a perfect example of an aquarists attempt to create a perfectly balanced biosystem. And I say "attempt" here only to elude that only God's perfect balance in nature has this perfected, not to offend.
I agree. I have written recently and more than once that every aquarium is an artificial closed system that cannot possibly function as nature in its completeness.

Quote:
Every fish tank, I don't care how well it is maintained, is going to be out of balance in some way.
One of the problems with internet forums is that we can't know what the other person is thinking when words are typed. By "balanced" I mean that the fish in the tank are suited to the tank volume and layout, respecting their size and numbers, with compatibility in all aspects (water params, environment, other species, etc), receiving proper water changes, and so forth. All of this is solely at the control of the aquarist.

Quote:
I do not, and highly doubt if anyone else, check the ammonia, nitrite or nitrate levels in my tank before I perform a routine water change (with 800 gals of tanks in our house water changes occur several times a day every day of the week) The only time I do check these water parameters is when, like I stated above, it is a fresh tank set up that is not fully cycled yet, or I have some other concern going on in the tank.
This is my method too, as I noted in another post here.

Quote:
The reason I do not feel the need to test my water parameters prior to a routine water change is because I fully trust the Prime product, when used as directed, will cover whatever is going on with the water quality in our tanks. I am grateful to have such a product at my disposal and hope others will use it as directed by the manufacturer, to assist in keeping their aquatic friends healthy.
On this we will differ, because I will never rely on some chemical to mask problems. I don't use Prime simply because I have no ammonia, nitrite or nitrate issues, and can't imagine this changing unless something drastic should occur such as an extended power outage.

Quote:
I would like to add here that Prime will bind ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate for 24-48 hours so if a tank is not fully cycled or has other issues that need to be addressed, that is the time frame you have to take care of problem areas, or perform another water change "with Prime" to keep your fish safe until the problem can be determined and addressed.
When cycling a new tank, fine. I frequently recommend Prime in those situations. Or if ammonia, nitrite or nitrate are present in the source water, I always recommend Prime (or Ultimate).
lakemalawifish likes this.
Byron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 08:30 PM   #39
 
Thanks Byron for clarifying these things. Words do get lost in translation via internet posts and often times are very misleading. I think one hang up between the two of us is, you have a planted tank and your plants are taking care of or assisting in the removal of nitrates, etc. and as much as I love planted tanks, we can not have plants with our fish and have to rely on other things whether it be a product, a technique in maintaining the tank, etc. to keep our fish healthy.
lakemalawifish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 08:50 PM   #40
 
Byron's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakemalawifish View Post
Thanks Byron for clarifying these things. Words do get lost in translation via internet posts and often times are very misleading. I think one hang up between the two of us is, you have a planted tank and your plants are taking care of or assisting in the removal of nitrates, etc. and as much as I love planted tanks, we can not have plants with our fish and have to rely on other things whether it be a product, a technique in maintaining the tank, etc. to keep our fish healthy.
There are some plant options. In another thread I just suggested floating plants to someone with a rift lake cichlid tank. And a clump of Vallisneria perhaps under a rock in one area might work. B.
Byron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Preferred tank level of Apistogramma cacatuoides KaylNeko Cichlids 8 01-19-2012 07:34 PM
Fish and Preferred Substrates Greedy Beginner Freshwater Aquarium 3 02-21-2010 06:57 AM


Tags
dechlorinator, waterchanges

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:25 PM.