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Whater changes ...Whats everyone's preferred method?

This is a discussion on Whater changes ...Whats everyone's preferred method? within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Since I have been unable to quote what I was told by the Representative at Seachem, here is the explanation given to another individual ...

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Whater changes ...Whats everyone's preferred method?
Old 12-05-2012, 11:27 PM   #21
 
Since I have been unable to quote what I was told by the Representative at Seachem, here is the explanation given to another individual for clarification regarding this matter

----------------------------------------------------- beginning of copied thread

I heard back from my contact at Seachem. Here is his reply. Pretty much what has already been stated by a lot of people here.

Hey Larry,

Sorry I am just getting back to you, I have been out of the office at a show. We are very happy to sponsor such events and I am glad that it was a success. Just wish I could have made it, especially for the auction!

To address the dosing of water conditioners, we must first look at how they function. All water dechlor or conditioners function by employing a reducing agent. This compound reduces and binds with assorted molecules to render them harmless. In the case of chlorine, a reducing agent will break the bond between the two atoms resulting in two chloride atoms. The same happens with chloramine only this results in three chloride atoms and a nitrogen. Most conditioners, especially Prime and Safe, also bind with other compounds to render them harmless. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are just a few of the common compounds that are effected. So, when you add Prime to a solution containing ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and chlorine, some of the Prime will break apart the chlorine and some will bind with the other compounds. So, if you are doing a water change in a tank that contains a fair amount of nitrate or some other compound, some of the conditioner will be utilized to detoxify these and will not be available to break apart the chlorine or chloramine. If you treat the water before adding it to the aquarium, the conditioner will remove any of the chlorine and chloramine. Any remaining conditioner will then bind with other compounds when added to the tank.

So... if adding water to the tank before treating, it is best to treat for the volume of the entire aquarium. This ensures that there is enough of the conditioner available to remove any chlorine or chloramine, without being effected by any ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate currently in the water. Think of it this way, when treating water before adding it to the tank, there are less harmful compounds to be detoxified. When adding it to the tank first, the conditioner will have more than just chlorine and chloramine to detoxify and therefore will require a larger dose. With Prime and Safe being as concentrated as they are, this typically requires little product but, is a great way to ensure your fish are safe.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any additional questions or need me to clarify anything.
---------------------------------------------------------------- end of copied thread
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:50 AM   #22
 
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I'm quite sure I do my pwc different than anyone else ever has, but here is what I do...

First, I fill my 1.8 gallon container with warm water and add 1/2-3/4 the recominded amount of Tetra AquaSafe as I do not have clorine (well water), but I still want a bit in there for it's benifits. Then, I place a thermometre in it to float while. I run my old Tetra 3i in it to remove the bit of sand my water has so it's nice and clean when I put it in my tank. When the water gets down to the same temp as the tank, I turn off the tank filter and remove the aproprite amount of water from the tank. I then pour in the fresh in the open filter back so as to not stress my fish with a sudden strong current. I do this 3x a week. 2x is just scooping out water from the top and 1x a week is a light substrate vacuming.

Yep, I know I over do it! But my babies are gonna be healthy if I have anything to say about it! XD
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Last edited by Bluewind; 12-06-2012 at 12:56 AM..
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:13 AM   #23
 
adding boiled water for partial water change .

hi
is it alright to add some boiled water to bring the temperature up when doing water changes ? i have done two water changes since i set my 200ltr tank up on the 24/11/12 i done one on the 30Th a 10ltr change and one today a 40ltr change i have been doing this with buckets of cold tap-water filled 3/4 up and topped up with boiled water from a kettle so as not to stress the fish to much witch are 3 giant giant danios to help with cycling i also add aqua plus into the buckets before adding into the main tank, i know my tank is still cycling and i have had a problem with a bacterial bloom but looks a lot cleaner after i done that water change earlier today i hope things will improve now. please let me know if i am doing the right thing where the boiled water is concerned. thanks everyone.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:50 AM   #24
 
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I just adjust the water temp at the tap.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:56 AM   #25
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvershark View Post
hi
is it alright to add some boiled water to bring the temperature up when doing water changes ? i have done two water changes since i set my 200ltr tank up on the 24/11/12 i done one on the 30Th a 10ltr change and one today a 40ltr change i have been doing this with buckets of cold tap-water filled 3/4 up and topped up with boiled water from a kettle so as not to stress the fish to much witch are 3 giant giant danios to help with cycling i also add aqua plus into the buckets before adding into the main tank, i know my tank is still cycling and i have had a problem with a bacterial bloom but looks a lot cleaner after i done that water change earlier today i hope things will improve now. please let me know if i am doing the right thing where the boiled water is concerned. thanks everyone.
Don't you have a hot water heater? Otherwise your showers must be ... interesting ;)

Just use warm water from the tap, far easier to get the correct temp and your water heater is more efficient at heating water than your stove.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:28 AM   #26
 
Kinda Glad there's no more arguing going on.....and to think I had to worry about the cichlids picking on one another!!:) LOL!! Thanks to everyone who gave their 2 cents on how they do waterchanges and what they think is best. great bits of info!
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:00 AM   #27
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakemalawifish View Post
----------------------------------------------------- beginning of copied thread

I heard back from my contact at Seachem. Here is his reply. Pretty much what has already been stated by a lot of people here.

Hey Larry,

Sorry I am just getting back to you, I have been out of the office at a show. We are very happy to sponsor such events and I am glad that it was a success. Just wish I could have made it, especially for the auction!

To address the dosing of water conditioners, we must first look at how they function. All water dechlor or conditioners function by employing a reducing agent. This compound reduces and binds with assorted molecules to render them harmless. In the case of chlorine, a reducing agent will break the bond between the two atoms resulting in two chloride atoms. The same happens with chloramine only this results in three chloride atoms and a nitrogen. Most conditioners, especially Prime and Safe, also bind with other compounds to render them harmless. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are just a few of the common compounds that are effected. So, when you add Prime to a solution containing ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and chlorine, some of the Prime will break apart the chlorine and some will bind with the other compounds. So, if you are doing a water change in a tank that contains a fair amount of nitrate or some other compound, some of the conditioner will be utilized to detoxify these and will not be available to break apart the chlorine or chloramine. If you treat the water before adding it to the aquarium, the conditioner will remove any of the chlorine and chloramine. Any remaining conditioner will then bind with other compounds when added to the tank.

So... if adding water to the tank before treating, it is best to treat for the volume of the entire aquarium. This ensures that there is enough of the conditioner available to remove any chlorine or chloramine, without being effected by any ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate currently in the water. Think of it this way, when treating water before adding it to the tank, there are less harmful compounds to be detoxified. When adding it to the tank first, the conditioner will have more than just chlorine and chloramine to detoxify and therefore will require a larger dose. With Prime and Safe being as concentrated as they are, this typically requires little product but, is a great way to ensure your fish are safe.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any additional questions or need me to clarify anything.
---------------------------------------------------------------- end of copied thread
Interesting that this is much along the lines of what I have said everywhere, concerning the ammonia, nitrite or nitrate...if these are not a problem, things are different.

It is perfectly clear to all that either adding conditioner sufficient for the replacement water or adding it for the entire tank will make no difference with respect to a water change in a healthy balanced system.

So that takes one to the issue of the additional chemicals and TDS, and I contacted Seachem yesterday on this and they replied that they had no idea of the TDS in Prime.

Everyone is entitled to know all the facts, that is why we are all here, or so I thought.

Byron.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:33 AM   #28
 
Byron, here you go on your high horse again. I have come to enjoy your debatable comments so let's get it on and I will try my best to keep things civil for the sake of forum members because hopefully we can all learn from these debates :)

1. Most people, including myself do not even know what TDS are. I had to look this up. I have the link below for others to hone up on. I trust Seachem products and have many years of successful experience with them and have fish friends with more years of experience than I have to back that up. If Seachem is not concerned about the TDS in their product... then neither am I. I trust Seachem that much. Obviously we and others who have successfully raised fish without the concern of TDS... have not had to be concerned with TDS's.

2. Since I am just researching TDS's... only because you keep making such a big deal about it... I realize why I have not been concerned with them and most of the fishkeepers I know are just like me and have never heard of TDS's. We are not keeping saltwater tanks, we are not trying to introduce a new species from the wild and trying to ascertain what kind of water the fish lives in.

3. Just wondering, how often do you test your water for TDS's? What type of device do you use for this?

4. Can you explain TDS's and the cause for so much concern? How does it relate to your planted tank? How does it relate to people who have tanks that are not planted? If you are going to cause such a fuss about something, please explain why it is so important so people can learn from that. Don't just leave an open-ended response that appears to be "belittling" someone else rather it be a company that provides a great product, or a consumer who is trying to pass that great product knowledge onto someone else.

Eagerly awaiting your kind response!

oh... here's the link regarding TDS's
TDS - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:16 PM   #29
 
Second topic of debate - Byron & lakemalawifish

Quoting Byron

Interesting that this is much along the lines of what I have said everywhere, concerning the ammonia, nitrite or nitrate...if these are not a problem, things are different.

It is perfectly clear to all that either adding conditioner sufficient for the replacement water or adding it for the entire tank will make no difference with respect to a water change in a healthy balanced system.


Read more: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...#ixzz2EIMgRcVt

Ok Byron, here's my rebuttal to that statement:

People with planted tanks have completely different concerns and practices than those with non-planted tanks. Planted tanks are a perfect example of an aquarists attempt to create a perfectly balanced biosystem. And I say "attempt" here only to elude that only God's perfect balance in nature has this perfected, not to offend.

Every fish tank, I don't care how well it is maintained, is going to be out of balance in some way. When we first started keeping fish I went through an entire API Master Water Test Kit in 3 months. I tested our tanks' water until I was blue in the face, trying to find that perfect balance. I bought another API Master Water Test Kit and have been using it when needed, i.e., fresh tank start up, during the process of cycling a tank, when the power was out for 2 days, etc. I am saying this because now I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that our tanks are never going to be in perfect balance.

I do not, and highly doubt if anyone else, check the ammonia, nitrite or nitrate levels in my tank before I perform a routine water change (with 800 gals of tanks in our house water changes occur several times a day every day of the week) The only time I do check these water parameters is when, like I stated above, it is a fresh tank set up that is not fully cycled yet, or I have some other concern going on in the tank.

The reason I do not feel the need to test my water parameters prior to a routine water change is because I fully trust the Prime product, when used as directed, will cover whatever is going on with the water quality in our tanks. I am grateful to have such a product at my disposal and hope others will use it as directed by the manufacturer, to assist in keeping their aquatic friends healthy.

I would like to add here that Prime will bind ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate for 24-48 hours so if a tank is not fully cycled or has other issues that need to be addressed, that is the time frame you have to take care of problem areas, or perform another water change "with Prime" to keep your fish safe until the problem can be determined and addressed.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:45 PM   #30
 
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First, thank you (I am being sincere, not facetious here) for this post. It will allow us to explore this issue the correct way, through research and discussion.

Quote:
Byron, here you go on your high horse again.
I can't seem to make a statement of fact without you seeing something else behind it.

Quote:
I have come to enjoy your debatable comments so let's get it on and I will try my best to keep things civil for the sake of forum members because hopefully we can all learn from these debates :)
Likewise.

Quote:
1. Most people, including myself do not even know what TDS are. I had to look this up. I have the link below for others to hone up on.
I have written on this in various threads, but will put something together and post it in this one. The Wiki synopsis is fine as far as it goes, but it obviously doesn't go far with freshwater, so I will get into this momentarily in a separate post to avoid bogging this one down. I'll track down some reliable FW sources.

Quote:
I trust Seachem products and have many years of successful experience with them and have fish friends with more years of experience than I have to back that up. If Seachem is not concerned about the TDS in their product... then neither am I. I trust Seachem that much.
I trust them too--but only as far as one should trust any business that exists to make money. I buy some of their products regularly. But one is not absolved from questioining and researching. They have a product called Excel which is a liquid carbon supplement for planted tanks, intended to provide an alternative to organic carbon which is does--but the actual chemistry of how it does this no-one, including SeaChem, knows. I will not use this, nor will I recommend it, because it is frankly toxic and dangerous. It's only ingredient (apart from water) is glutaraldehyde: an antimicrobial, bactericide, fungicide, and virucide, commonly used to sterilize medical instruments in hospitals. It is also used as an embalming fluid, as an ingredient in Anti-Freeze, an antibacterial agent in cooling towers, a leather tanning agent, a biocide in water treatment, a sanitary solution for portable toilets, and is used to sterilize ballast tanks in ships moving from one water source to another (to kill off pathogens and critters that may be transferred in the tanks from one water way to another). I don't want this in my fish tanks. Admittedly, it needs overdosing to achieve these toxic effects, but such substances do not belong in an aquarium. And regardless, some plant species (Vallisneria for one) are usually killed by this even at the recommended dose.

The fact that Seachem is not concerned with TDS doesn't mean it is not significant. They also don't fully understand how Prime works in dealing with nitrite or nitrate.

Quote:
Obviously we and others who have successfully raised fish without the concern of TDS... have not had to be concerned with TDS's.

2. Since I am just researching TDS's... only because you keep making such a big deal about it... I realize why I have not been concerned with them and most of the fishkeepers I know are just like me and have never heard of TDS's.

3. Just wondering, how often do you test your water for TDS's? What type of device do you use for this?
I don't, because first I can't afford the equipment. But I also know there are ways of keeping TDS low so it is safe not to have to worry. I never test for ammonia or nitrite, because I know they will never be present in my tanks--unless something seriously goes awry, and then I do test just to ensure these factors are not involved. I sporadically test for nitrates, maybe once every 4-5 months (or when something affects the fish, again as a preliminary step), and in 15+ years the nitrates in my tanks have never wavered. This is not to say one shouldn't test for this or that, if periodically, but the point is that establishing stability is the key, and to do this we must understand the science to some extent.

Like any aspect in life, from our health to the health of our fishes, as discoveries are made we learn more, and hopefully benefit by learning ways to make our fish healthier, which is my prime objective. Fish don't need to be dying to be unhealthy, and avoiding pitfalls that can cause stress is always wise, because all fish disease and premature death can be linked back to stress. Thus, preventing stress as much as we can should--and will we now know--ensure healthier fish. TDS is a fairly new aspect but already we know it affects fish [more later].

Quote:
we are not trying to introduce a new species from the wild and trying to ascertain what kind of water the fish lives in.
The concern over water parameters is relevant to all fish, not just wild caught. Another thread discussing nitrates has a comment that our commercially-raised fish are different from wild with respect to nitrates, but this is incorrect thinking. Nitrate is on a par with ammonia and nitrite, they are forms of nitrogen, and all are toxic, and all will kill at differing levels. It defies logic to think that tank-raised fish that cannot adapt to higher ammonia or higher nitrite will somehow mysteriously adapt to higher nitrates.

There is sufficient scientific evidence now to show that fish must have an environment that is as close as possible to that for which they evolved, if we are concerned about keeping them in their best health. I'm sure you share this aim, as hopefully all members do. Healthy fish are happy fish.

Quote:
4. Can you explain TDS's and the cause for so much concern?
This will be in a separate post, as mentioned above. This one is already becoming a novel.

Byron.
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Last edited by Byron; 12-06-2012 at 12:49 PM..
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