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Whater changes ...Whats everyone's preferred method?

10K views 74 replies 19 participants last post by  Molinious 
#1 ·
For the last several years, When I would do a waterchange, I would do maybe 25-30% water changes in my 55 Gal tank. I would add the Decholrinator (API Stress Coat) in the appopriate amount ( for approx 15 gal of new water) directly into the tank, either just before or just after adding the new tap water.

I've heard of others who let tap water sit in a bucket for 24-48 hours and that supposidly removes the cholrine or makes it safe to use for water changes with out the Dechlorinator?

Which Method is best?

Thanks!
 
#2 ·
I'd always use a conditioner.

While it is true that letting water sit for 24 hours will let the Chlorine outgas, that only works for Chlorine and not for Chloramine. If your water utility suddenly switches, you may not know and could end up killing your fish.

I change between 33% and 50% each week, on my large 125g tank I use an Aqueon Water Changer (other brand name is a Python) so I can hook it up directly to the sink. I add conditioner to the tank and fill directly to the tank. On my smaller tanks I use a syphon into buckets.
 
#3 ·
I use a Python so I add the dechlorinator just before refilling the tank. No need to let the water sit in a bucket as the dechlorinator works instantly.

Many municipalities also use chloramines so letting the water sit in a bucket may take care of the chlorine but not chloramine. Also many dechlorinators will take care if any heavy metals the water.
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#4 ·
+ one,
I add dechlorinator to the tank just before I add the new water with Aqueon water changer syphon.
When I used bucket's:roll:, I added the dechlorinator to the bucket's before pouring bucket's into the tank.
If your water conatain's chloramines,,then water conditioner/dechlorinator should in my view be used.
PRIME is excellent product, and cheaper in the long run than most other dechlorinator's.
 
#5 ·
Yea I use the Python Siphon as well since it drains/and fills using the faucet and no buckets are needed. I recently bought a bottle of the PRIME as well. I was just curious as to what the advantages and disadvantages of buckets were for waterchanges. Guess I was going about it the right way after all. Thanks!
 
#6 ·
Python and Prime, the only way to go! 800 gals of tanks running is proof in the pudding ;) Be sure to match the temp of the water in tank as close as possible (some fish can tolerate up to a 2 degree difference either way but why take a chance?) Dose the Prime according to the total gallons of the tank (not the amount of water you are replacing) As freshwater is going into the tank, add your Prime.
 
#7 ·
Python and Prime, the only way to go! 800 gals of tanks running is proof in the pudding ;) Be sure to match the temp of the water in tank as close as possible (some fish can tolerate up to a 2 degree difference either way but why take a chance?) Dose the Prime according to the total gallons of the tank (not the amount of water you are replacing) As freshwater is going into the tank, add your Prime.

Wow that was mistake #1 I was making...Dosing to the Gallons I was replacing 10-15 gallons in a 55 Gallon tank, not for 55 Gal each time!! Thank You!
 
#11 ·
I too dose for entire volume of water when filling with python or similar device.(as per suggestion's by Seachem)
Back when I used bucket's,,I dosed only for the amount in the bucket,or that which I removed.
Have seen no negative effect's either way.
If I'm getting low on dechlorinator,,I sometimes only dose for amount removed.
Prime is reported to be safe up to three times the suggested dose for emergencies, so I am not too worried bout toxicity, but do agree with Byron regarding TDS with soft water species.
Problem is in my view,, is everything we add to the aquarium, from dechlorinator,fertilizer's,fish food's,increases the TDS.
 
#13 ·
You know Byron, I have read several of your stabbing comments, not just this one but several of them in other posts. You have a way of making your point of the matter very clear as if you really think your way is best. Sure, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to be right according to their best judgement and former practice. Thank God we do not have to have a PhD to keep fish alive. Everyone is free to make their own choice as to how to care for their beloved fish. To me, that is just part of enjoying fishkeeping... to have beautiful and healthy fish and help others do the same. Bad advice is just that... bad, and I don't think anyone would purposely give it. I hope others on this forum are able to ascertain the difference between bad advice, one sided advice and good advice. We have over 800 gallons of tanks running in our home and several thousands of dollars of fish, I am going to follow the manufacturer's directions.
 
#44 ·
I agree 100%
One thing i have found is that there are some people on here that think they know all and its their way or no way. What I have found it that most of whats been written is totally contradictory to what I've read on many other sites as well as people who have yrs and yrs of experience not only keeping fish but breeding them as well. I have asked in other posts to provide some data and also asked for their credentials....i heard nothing but crickets. I've read in other posts the phrase "thru my research"...that is a misleading statement. Running 4 tanks full of neons and guppies dont qualify as research in my book.
 
#14 ·
I guess both would work.

I just replace evaporative water with no chemicals on my planted tanks. That works fine for me.

but worth to others at most .02
 
#15 · (Edited)
I have heard of people letting their water sit out for 24 hours also, but this will only rid it of chlorine. If you local water company uses chloramines to disinfect the water, chloramines are fatal to fish. I used to use API Stress Coat and I believe that is correct, you only have to add the amount of product for the water you are replacing. When we switched to Prime because so many of our friends with fish swore by it, that is when we found out that it is recommend that it is best to add it to the fresh water first, according to the amount of fresh water you are adding to the tank. But, if you are adding it directly to the tank, add the product according to the volume of water in the entire tank. I don't know the reason why the company says to do it this way, all I know is I want to remove chlorine and chloramines from the water and all of our tanks are filled with a python so that is what we do. I trust Seachem, they are a great family owned company in Madison, GA. The have superior products. They have a Customer Support team that is fantastic and a real person answers the phone and you get a qualified tech support person immediately. They are an American owned and operated company. Some years ago I called API with a question, several different times, nobody called me back. We have had great results with Prime and I would not use anything else without very very careful consideration. Prime is as important to me as my first cup of coffee in the morning. I freak out when we start running low on it.

Seachem has another product that I am looking at to get for all of our tanks called Matrix. Because our tanks have so much water movement there's not much area, if any, for anaerobic bacteria to grow. The water is forced through the canister at such a fast rate that it can't grow there either. This anaerobic bacteria is critical for the removal of nitrates. Matrix is a highly porous biomedia that is ideally sized for the support of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. This allows Matrix, unlike other forms of biomedia, to remove nitrate along with ammonia and nitrite, simultaneously and in the same filter. Another great thing about this product is it does not have to be replaced or recharged. We tried the Seachem Purigen, it did reduce Nitrates more effectively than the API NitraZorb did, but Purigen has to be removed and re-charged (cleaned with Chlorine Bleach) and I do not want to have to mess with bleach, especially with as many tanks as we have running.

Here's the link to Matrix (seriously I can't wait to get this stuff)
Seachem. Matrix
 
#16 ·
At the risk of annoying you again, I would question the benefits of Matrix in a balanced system. The majority of bacteria live outside of the filter in the substrate. Do you have a nitrate problem?
 
#17 · (Edited by Moderator)
At the risk of annoying you again, I would question the benefits of Matrix in a balanced system. The majority of bacteria live outside of the filter in the substrate. Do you have a nitrate problem?
Byron, I see that you have a 115 gallon planted tank with small fish. Not sure if that is the only tank you have running, but it really does not matter. The point I would like to make is you apparently have NO knowledge of large tanks and large fish keeping. Yes, you are annoying me. It seems like every time I post something you have to throw in your negative comments to the contrary. The anaerobic bacteria in your tank is in the substrate, your substrate is rarely, IF EVER, bothered and you have small fish swimming around. Please stop trying to compare your tank and your methods of fish keeping with others who have tanks and fish totally different from yours. NO... we do not have beneficial bacterial in our substrate, one of the main ways we have to remove Nitrates from our tank is to thoroughly vacuum the poop and food waste from the sand. Nitrates also collect in the canister when it is dirty and needs cleaning. NO we do not have a Nitrate problem at present, I am simply trying to help others on the forum who do. And YES the Matrix does play a very important role in the canister as far as creating a highly porous biomedia where anaerobic bacteria can grow. Now, would you please leave me alone. Thank you.
 
#18 ·
Wow, not to jump on at the last second, but lakemalawifish, that was pretty rude. If you didn't like what he said you could have shrugged and moved on. Instead you post an entire rant attacking him -for all the internet to see- in quite a vicious fashion. There was absolutely no need for that and it leaves a rather bitter taste in my mouth that you reacted in such a volatile fashion.
 
#21 ·
Since I have been unable to quote what I was told by the Representative at Seachem, here is the explanation given to another individual for clarification regarding this matter

----------------------------------------------------- beginning of copied thread

I heard back from my contact at Seachem. Here is his reply. Pretty much what has already been stated by a lot of people here.

Hey Larry,

Sorry I am just getting back to you, I have been out of the office at a show. We are very happy to sponsor such events and I am glad that it was a success. Just wish I could have made it, especially for the auction!

To address the dosing of water conditioners, we must first look at how they function. All water dechlor or conditioners function by employing a reducing agent. This compound reduces and binds with assorted molecules to render them harmless. In the case of chlorine, a reducing agent will break the bond between the two atoms resulting in two chloride atoms. The same happens with chloramine only this results in three chloride atoms and a nitrogen. Most conditioners, especially Prime and Safe, also bind with other compounds to render them harmless. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are just a few of the common compounds that are effected. So, when you add Prime to a solution containing ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and chlorine, some of the Prime will break apart the chlorine and some will bind with the other compounds. So, if you are doing a water change in a tank that contains a fair amount of nitrate or some other compound, some of the conditioner will be utilized to detoxify these and will not be available to break apart the chlorine or chloramine. If you treat the water before adding it to the aquarium, the conditioner will remove any of the chlorine and chloramine. Any remaining conditioner will then bind with other compounds when added to the tank.

So... if adding water to the tank before treating, it is best to treat for the volume of the entire aquarium. This ensures that there is enough of the conditioner available to remove any chlorine or chloramine, without being effected by any ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate currently in the water. Think of it this way, when treating water before adding it to the tank, there are less harmful compounds to be detoxified. When adding it to the tank first, the conditioner will have more than just chlorine and chloramine to detoxify and therefore will require a larger dose. With Prime and Safe being as concentrated as they are, this typically requires little product but, is a great way to ensure your fish are safe.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any additional questions or need me to clarify anything.
---------------------------------------------------------------- end of copied thread
 
#27 ·
----------------------------------------------------- beginning of copied thread

I heard back from my contact at Seachem. Here is his reply. Pretty much what has already been stated by a lot of people here.

Hey Larry,

Sorry I am just getting back to you, I have been out of the office at a show. We are very happy to sponsor such events and I am glad that it was a success. Just wish I could have made it, especially for the auction!

To address the dosing of water conditioners, we must first look at how they function. All water dechlor or conditioners function by employing a reducing agent. This compound reduces and binds with assorted molecules to render them harmless. In the case of chlorine, a reducing agent will break the bond between the two atoms resulting in two chloride atoms. The same happens with chloramine only this results in three chloride atoms and a nitrogen. Most conditioners, especially Prime and Safe, also bind with other compounds to render them harmless. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are just a few of the common compounds that are effected. So, when you add Prime to a solution containing ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and chlorine, some of the Prime will break apart the chlorine and some will bind with the other compounds. So, if you are doing a water change in a tank that contains a fair amount of nitrate or some other compound, some of the conditioner will be utilized to detoxify these and will not be available to break apart the chlorine or chloramine. If you treat the water before adding it to the aquarium, the conditioner will remove any of the chlorine and chloramine. Any remaining conditioner will then bind with other compounds when added to the tank.

So... if adding water to the tank before treating, it is best to treat for the volume of the entire aquarium. This ensures that there is enough of the conditioner available to remove any chlorine or chloramine, without being effected by any ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate currently in the water. Think of it this way, when treating water before adding it to the tank, there are less harmful compounds to be detoxified. When adding it to the tank first, the conditioner will have more than just chlorine and chloramine to detoxify and therefore will require a larger dose. With Prime and Safe being as concentrated as they are, this typically requires little product but, is a great way to ensure your fish are safe.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any additional questions or need me to clarify anything.
---------------------------------------------------------------- end of copied thread
Interesting that this is much along the lines of what I have said everywhere, concerning the ammonia, nitrite or nitrate...if these are not a problem, things are different.

It is perfectly clear to all that either adding conditioner sufficient for the replacement water or adding it for the entire tank will make no difference with respect to a water change in a healthy balanced system.

So that takes one to the issue of the additional chemicals and TDS, and I contacted Seachem yesterday on this and they replied that they had no idea of the TDS in Prime.

Everyone is entitled to know all the facts, that is why we are all here, or so I thought.

Byron.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I'm quite sure I do my pwc different than anyone else ever has, but here is what I do...

First, I fill my 1.8 gallon container with warm water and add 1/2-3/4 the recominded amount of Tetra AquaSafe as I do not have clorine (well water), but I still want a bit in there for it's benifits. Then, I place a thermometre in it to float while. I run my old Tetra 3i in it to remove the bit of sand my water has so it's nice and clean when I put it in my tank. When the water gets down to the same temp as the tank, I turn off the tank filter and remove the aproprite amount of water from the tank. I then pour in the fresh in the open filter back so as to not stress my fish with a sudden strong current. I do this 3x a week. 2x is just scooping out water from the top and 1x a week is a light substrate vacuming.

Yep, I know I over do it! But my babies are gonna be healthy if I have anything to say about it! XD
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#23 ·
adding boiled water for partial water change .

hi
is it alright to add some boiled water to bring the temperature up when doing water changes ? i have done two water changes since i set my 200ltr tank up on the 24/11/12 i done one on the 30Th a 10ltr change and one today a 40ltr change i have been doing this with buckets of cold tap-water filled 3/4 up and topped up with boiled water from a kettle so as not to stress the fish to much witch are 3 giant giant danios to help with cycling i also add aqua plus into the buckets before adding into the main tank, i know my tank is still cycling and i have had a problem with a bacterial bloom but looks a lot cleaner after i done that water change earlier today i hope things will improve now. please let me know if i am doing the right thing where the boiled water is concerned. thanks everyone.:thankyou:
 
#25 ·
hi
is it alright to add some boiled water to bring the temperature up when doing water changes ? i have done two water changes since i set my 200ltr tank up on the 24/11/12 i done one on the 30Th a 10ltr change and one today a 40ltr change i have been doing this with buckets of cold tap-water filled 3/4 up and topped up with boiled water from a kettle so as not to stress the fish to much witch are 3 giant giant danios to help with cycling i also add aqua plus into the buckets before adding into the main tank, i know my tank is still cycling and i have had a problem with a bacterial bloom but looks a lot cleaner after i done that water change earlier today i hope things will improve now. please let me know if i am doing the right thing where the boiled water is concerned. thanks everyone.:thankyou:
Don't you have a hot water heater? Otherwise your showers must be ... interesting ;)

Just use warm water from the tap, far easier to get the correct temp and your water heater is more efficient at heating water than your stove.
 
#28 ·
Byron, here you go on your high horse again. I have come to enjoy your debatable comments so let's get it on and I will try my best to keep things civil for the sake of forum members because hopefully we can all learn from these debates :)

1. Most people, including myself do not even know what TDS are. I had to look this up. I have the link below for others to hone up on. I trust Seachem products and have many years of successful experience with them and have fish friends with more years of experience than I have to back that up. If Seachem is not concerned about the TDS in their product... then neither am I. I trust Seachem that much. Obviously we and others who have successfully raised fish without the concern of TDS... have not had to be concerned with TDS's.

2. Since I am just researching TDS's... only because you keep making such a big deal about it... I realize why I have not been concerned with them and most of the fishkeepers I know are just like me and have never heard of TDS's. We are not keeping saltwater tanks, we are not trying to introduce a new species from the wild and trying to ascertain what kind of water the fish lives in.

3. Just wondering, how often do you test your water for TDS's? What type of device do you use for this?

4. Can you explain TDS's and the cause for so much concern? How does it relate to your planted tank? How does it relate to people who have tanks that are not planted? If you are going to cause such a fuss about something, please explain why it is so important so people can learn from that. Don't just leave an open-ended response that appears to be "belittling" someone else rather it be a company that provides a great product, or a consumer who is trying to pass that great product knowledge onto someone else.

Eagerly awaiting your kind response!

oh... here's the link regarding TDS's
TDS - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki
 
#29 ·
Second topic of debate - Byron & lakemalawifish

Quoting Byron

Interesting that this is much along the lines of what I have said everywhere, concerning the ammonia, nitrite or nitrate...if these are not a problem, things are different.

It is perfectly clear to all that either adding conditioner sufficient for the replacement water or adding it for the entire tank will make no difference with respect to a water change in a healthy balanced system.


Read more: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...-preferred-method-121884/page3/#ixzz2EIMgRcVt

Ok Byron, here's my rebuttal to that statement:

People with planted tanks have completely different concerns and practices than those with non-planted tanks. Planted tanks are a perfect example of an aquarists attempt to create a perfectly balanced biosystem. And I say "attempt" here only to elude that only God's perfect balance in nature has this perfected, not to offend.

Every fish tank, I don't care how well it is maintained, is going to be out of balance in some way. When we first started keeping fish I went through an entire API Master Water Test Kit in 3 months. I tested our tanks' water until I was blue in the face, trying to find that perfect balance. I bought another API Master Water Test Kit and have been using it when needed, i.e., fresh tank start up, during the process of cycling a tank, when the power was out for 2 days, etc. I am saying this because now I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that our tanks are never going to be in perfect balance.

I do not, and highly doubt if anyone else, check the ammonia, nitrite or nitrate levels in my tank before I perform a routine water change (with 800 gals of tanks in our house water changes occur several times a day every day of the week) The only time I do check these water parameters is when, like I stated above, it is a fresh tank set up that is not fully cycled yet, or I have some other concern going on in the tank.

The reason I do not feel the need to test my water parameters prior to a routine water change is because I fully trust the Prime product, when used as directed, will cover whatever is going on with the water quality in our tanks. I am grateful to have such a product at my disposal and hope others will use it as directed by the manufacturer, to assist in keeping their aquatic friends healthy.

I would like to add here that Prime will bind ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate for 24-48 hours so if a tank is not fully cycled or has other issues that need to be addressed, that is the time frame you have to take care of problem areas, or perform another water change "with Prime" to keep your fish safe until the problem can be determined and addressed.
 
#52 · (Edited)
I do not, and highly doubt if anyone else, check the ammonia, nitrite or nitrate levels in my tank before I perform a routine water change (with 800 gals of tanks in our house water changes occur several times a day every day of the week) The only time I do check these water parameters is when, like I stated above, it is a fresh tank set up that is not fully cycled yet, or I have some other concern going on in the tank.
^ Opinion: I keep a very detailed log book of EACH water change on every aquarium I own. This helps me understand (in the event something goes wrong) what went wrong and when. I check my water parameters prior to each PWC weekly regardless of any signs of distress or issues with the system. While many fish owners here (including myself) do not keep multiple large aquariums like yourself, this does not mean we are ignorant to the cause. Some would call this method excessive and that's perfectly fine. But at least I have the comfort of knowing that my water parameters haven't deterred over a period of time without my knowledge and one day I suddenly realize there is an internal mishap that has went unacknowledged for an extended period of time.

Regardless of how much upkeep you have on your aquarium, you will eventually run into a problem.

The reason I do not feel the need to test my water parameters prior to a routine water change is because I fully trust the Prime product, when used as directed, will cover whatever is going on with the water quality in our tanks. I am grateful to have such a product at my disposal and hope others will use it as directed by the manufacturer, to assist in keeping their aquatic friends healthy.
Again, completely your method of doing things and is completely fine by standards and I have no intent of disputing that. People have different methods of maintaining their aquariums and none should be rightfully disputed unless fact shows it is an improper method and should not be done. If the method works and causes no harm to the habitat, then god speed.

I would like to add here that Prime will bind ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate for 24-48 hours so if a tank is not fully cycled or has other issues that need to be addressed, that is the time frame you have to take care of problem areas, or perform another water change "with Prime" to keep your fish safe until the problem can be determined and addressed.
I would also like to add (my opinion, which is what you have as well) that I have used Byrons advise directly given to me and indirectly (by reading his posts) and have had marvelous outcomes. Obviously if my method of maintaining my aquariums works for me then I have no obvious need to take his advice (nor would you in this case), his advise is still intelligent and shouldn't be disregarded as ignorant.

You obviously have a long standing term when it comes to aquariums and obviously you have your own methods and others may follow your methods, but, be warned before-hand that everyone is [not] going to agree with your methods and will choose different methods that work for them and thus would choose not to follow your advice and choose the advice of another. This does not mean your method is wrong, it simply means the chosen individual would rather use a different method that would work all as well as yours as their chosen method.

You can sit here and having a wizzing contest all day with Byron, but it will not change the fact that your method nor his method works better than the other in terms how certain individuals choose to maintain their aquariums.

Good luck :)
 
#30 · (Edited)
First, thank you (I am being sincere, not facetious here) for this post. It will allow us to explore this issue the correct way, through research and discussion.

Byron, here you go on your high horse again.
I can't seem to make a statement of fact without you seeing something else behind it.:-(

I have come to enjoy your debatable comments so let's get it on and I will try my best to keep things civil for the sake of forum members because hopefully we can all learn from these debates :)
Likewise.

1. Most people, including myself do not even know what TDS are. I had to look this up. I have the link below for others to hone up on.
I have written on this in various threads, but will put something together and post it in this one. The Wiki synopsis is fine as far as it goes, but it obviously doesn't go far with freshwater, so I will get into this momentarily in a separate post to avoid bogging this one down. I'll track down some reliable FW sources.

I trust Seachem products and have many years of successful experience with them and have fish friends with more years of experience than I have to back that up. If Seachem is not concerned about the TDS in their product... then neither am I. I trust Seachem that much.
I trust them too--but only as far as one should trust any business that exists to make money. I buy some of their products regularly. But one is not absolved from questioining and researching. They have a product called Excel which is a liquid carbon supplement for planted tanks, intended to provide an alternative to organic carbon which is does--but the actual chemistry of how it does this no-one, including SeaChem, knows. I will not use this, nor will I recommend it, because it is frankly toxic and dangerous. It's only ingredient (apart from water) is glutaraldehyde: an antimicrobial, bactericide, fungicide, and virucide, commonly used to sterilize medical instruments in hospitals. It is also used as an embalming fluid, as an ingredient in Anti-Freeze, an antibacterial agent in cooling towers, a leather tanning agent, a biocide in water treatment, a sanitary solution for portable toilets, and is used to sterilize ballast tanks in ships moving from one water source to another (to kill off pathogens and critters that may be transferred in the tanks from one water way to another). I don't want this in my fish tanks. Admittedly, it needs overdosing to achieve these toxic effects, but such substances do not belong in an aquarium. And regardless, some plant species (Vallisneria for one) are usually killed by this even at the recommended dose.

The fact that Seachem is not concerned with TDS doesn't mean it is not significant. They also don't fully understand how Prime works in dealing with nitrite or nitrate.

Obviously we and others who have successfully raised fish without the concern of TDS... have not had to be concerned with TDS's.

2. Since I am just researching TDS's... only because you keep making such a big deal about it... I realize why I have not been concerned with them and most of the fishkeepers I know are just like me and have never heard of TDS's.

3. Just wondering, how often do you test your water for TDS's? What type of device do you use for this?
I don't, because first I can't afford the equipment. But I also know there are ways of keeping TDS low so it is safe not to have to worry. I never test for ammonia or nitrite, because I know they will never be present in my tanks--unless something seriously goes awry, and then I do test just to ensure these factors are not involved. I sporadically test for nitrates, maybe once every 4-5 months (or when something affects the fish, again as a preliminary step), and in 15+ years the nitrates in my tanks have never wavered. This is not to say one shouldn't test for this or that, if periodically, but the point is that establishing stability is the key, and to do this we must understand the science to some extent.

Like any aspect in life, from our health to the health of our fishes, as discoveries are made we learn more, and hopefully benefit by learning ways to make our fish healthier, which is my prime objective. Fish don't need to be dying to be unhealthy, and avoiding pitfalls that can cause stress is always wise, because all fish disease and premature death can be linked back to stress. Thus, preventing stress as much as we can should--and will we now know--ensure healthier fish. TDS is a fairly new aspect but already we know it affects fish [more later].

we are not trying to introduce a new species from the wild and trying to ascertain what kind of water the fish lives in.
The concern over water parameters is relevant to all fish, not just wild caught. Another thread discussing nitrates has a comment that our commercially-raised fish are different from wild with respect to nitrates, but this is incorrect thinking. Nitrate is on a par with ammonia and nitrite, they are forms of nitrogen, and all are toxic, and all will kill at differing levels. It defies logic to think that tank-raised fish that cannot adapt to higher ammonia or higher nitrite will somehow mysteriously adapt to higher nitrates.

There is sufficient scientific evidence now to show that fish must have an environment that is as close as possible to that for which they evolved, if we are concerned about keeping them in their best health. I'm sure you share this aim, as hopefully all members do. Healthy fish are happy fish.

4. Can you explain TDS's and the cause for so much concern?
This will be in a separate post, as mentioned above. This one is already becoming a novel.:)

Byron.
 
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#31 ·
OK. I'll bite.
I believe it may have been me that suggested that many of our aquarium fishes nowday's are being raised in water's far removed from what they would see in the wild and as such,,,they either adapt to the water or they don't.
The fact that their natural water's may be low in TDS, or nitrates, is something for us to perhap's to strive for, but not realistic in many area's ,or in closed system's such as our's that rely on ever increasing pollution tainted sources for water replenishment.
As I mentioned the other day in another thread,Everything we add to the tank from Dechlorinator,Bacterial supplement's,fertilizer's,fish food's, increases the TDS.Would you stop adding dechlorinator's,fish food's with the metal's ,phosphates,animal protein's,etc, buffering agent's such as the Equilibrium that you and other's use?
Not much different in my view between fishes that adapt or don't,,,and the bacterial pathogen's that we see becoming more and more resistent to those antibiotic's that used to work.
Is a fluid situation pardon the pun.
Personally,,I would be more fearful of dirty organic rich tank's where little to no maint is performed,before I began sweating over a few extra ml of Prime during water change.
It is the lesser of two evil's (Way less).
 
#34 ·
OK. I'll bite.
I believe it may have been me that suggested that many of our aquarium fishes nowday's are being raised in water's far removed from what they would see in the wild and as such,,,they either adapt to the water or they don't.
The fact that their natural water's may be low in TDS, or nitrates, is something for us to perhap's to strive for, but not realistic in many area's ,or in closed system's such as our's that rely on ever increasing pollution tainted sources for water replenishment.
As I mentioned the other day in another thread,Everything we add to the tank from Dechlorinator,Bacterial supplement's,fertilizer's,fish food's, increases the TDS.Would you stop adding dechlorinator's,fish food's with the metal's ,phosphates,animal protein's,etc, buffering agent's such as the Equilibrium that you and other's use?
Not much different in my view between fishes that adapt or don't,,,and the bacterial pathogen's that we see becoming more and more resistent to those antibiotic's that used to work.
Is a fluid situation pardon the pun.
Personally,,I would be more fearful of dirty organic rich tank's where little to no maint is performed,before I began sweating over a few extra ml of Prime during water change.
It is the lesser of two evil's (Way less).
I can't disagree with this. I would simply say that knowing this to be the case, we should work to reduce the "toxins" as much as possible--and not go adding more without good reason. These include the organics [obviously the planted tank enters into this] and TDS [and bear in mind, that your high organics are part of the total solids which are TSS and TDS--but I won't get into that here [I am drafting an article on this now, to hopefully explain this as was requested of me]. So in a sense, there is not two evils, just one--total solids. And eliminating as many as we can is the goal.

Yes I add conditioner and Equilibrium and fish food, all of which contribute to the TDS. But I don't over-load with any. Only what is essential. As with medicines for fish and humans, more than the necessary dose is not better, but worse.;-)
 
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#32 ·
Thank you 1077 for your insight. Byron, we are not trying to gang up on you. We are just trying to understand the importance of certain issues and how they relate to our fish. 95% of our fish are wild caught or F1 Lake Malawi Cichlids. Our wild caught fish source has them imported, he very carefully treats them for parasites and acclimates them to life in a fish tank environment. Even after we purchase them, some of the more delicate species have to be drip acclimated to the tank environment that we are putting them into. These fish are the most beautifully colored fish I have ever seen, second to saltwater fish. I believe that the people on this forum are doing everything they can to take proper care of their fish, to the best of their knowledge and ability, or they would not be here attempting to learn more from others in order to keep their fish healthy, happy and as stress free as possible. When you throw curve balls regarding TDS into the equation, that quite honestly you have failed to successfully back up thus far in my opinion, and then start bad-mouthing companies like Seachem who I am sure have scientists and biologist with multiple degrees who design and formulate products they sell to ensure their safety, that is where I have a big problem.
 
#35 ·
Thank you 1077 for your insight. Byron, we are not trying to gang up on you. We are just trying to understand the importance of certain issues and how they relate to our fish. 95% of our fish are wild caught or F1 Lake Malawi Cichlids. Our wild caught fish source has them imported, he very carefully treats them for parasites and acclimates them to life in a fish tank environment. Even after we purchase them, some of the more delicate species have to be drip acclimated to the tank environment that we are putting them into. These fish are the most beautifully colored fish I have ever seen, second to saltwater fish. I believe that the people on this forum are doing everything they can to take proper care of their fish, to the best of their knowledge and ability, or they would not be here attempting to learn more from others in order to keep their fish healthy, happy and as stress free as possible. When you throw curve balls regarding TDS into the equation, that quite honestly you have failed to successfully back up thus far in my opinion, and then start bad-mouthing companies like Seachem who I am sure have scientists and biologist with multiple degrees who design and formulate products they sell to ensure their safety, that is where I have a big problem.
I am working on an article for total solids in between posting here. I should have it finished today, and will post it in the Freshwater Articles section and link to it in this thread. I like to have the whole picture, and you seem to be similar, which is good, so bear with me and you will see my understanding and approach to this.

As for Seachem, I have high regard for them, or I wouldn't use their products. But I do disagree that one should nedver point out the truth for fear of somehow maligning this or any company. What I have stated about Seachem is fact, and if anyone can prove otherwise, do so.

Byron.
 
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#33 ·
I think it's wonderful that we are on a forum that people are so pasionate and well informed about fishkeeping. Where questions can be asked and many different opinions can be given which the OP can then research and find the best approach for them. I like facts and good information. I want this place to be just that.
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#36 ·
Hello:
I have been considering using Prime conditioner but when I am at the LFS I just can’t seem to force myself to purchase the product. I don’t believe that adding manufactured substances is necessary or prudent.

Bryon in my opinion is correct about a possible negative effect of excessive Total Dissolved Solids. Just because a product is on the market and appears to work will not necessarily indicate there are no negative aspects using it.

Generally speaking all people are prone to discovering facts that support predetermined conclusions. This includes me and the makers of Prime and other water conditioning products.
pop
 
#37 ·
Pop, you don't use a water conditioner when you do water changes?
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