VerdantGrotto's Fresh-Water Habitat - Page 4 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
 13Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 174 Old 12-26-2012, 12:52 PM
Member
 
Byron's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerdantGrotto View Post
I tested the PH after doing a 20% water change and waiting an hour... No Change , still at 8.4

I will be getting the" PH down" and trying the Peat Moss technique to bring it down for now. I assume the wood that will be in it in approximately a week or two will be sufficient to keep it stable. There will be a large piece of Mopani in the Center of the Tank. I've heard that this type of wood could cause some issues but the look is great and I wanted to give it a try. Unfortunately , I don't want to introduce any fish into the tank until I get all the perameters stabilized. Also, In an effort to keep the PH down I use Reverse Osmosis and/or distilled water for water changes. This worked pretty well in my "Trainer" 10 gallon tank. It also seems to be bland Nuetral water with minimal additives. I still add the water conditioner and Bacteria though.
Be very careful with pH Down or any similar chemical. These frequently do not work due to the buffering of the KH. What happens is that the pH Down lowers the pH, then the KH raises it back to where it is in the source water. Then you add more pH Down, but the KH raises it back up again. This will continue to occur until the point at which the buffering capacity of the KH is reached, and then the pH can suddenly drop, what some refer to as a crash, because there is no longer any buffering to affect all the chemical solution.

The latter crash will almost certainly kill the fish. But leading up to that, the continual fluctuations up and down are highly stressful and these weaken the fish.

It is best to use these solutions in tanks without live fish. If after say a week the pH is remaining stable, it should be safe.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
Byron is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 174 Old 12-26-2012, 12:57 PM Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron View Post
Be very careful with pH Down or any similar chemical. These frequently do not work due to the buffering of the KH. What happens is that the pH Down lowers the pH, then the KH raises it back to where it is in the source water. Then you add more pH Down, but the KH raises it back up again. This will continue to occur until the point at which the buffering capacity of the KH is reached, and then the pH can suddenly drop, what some refer to as a crash, because there is no longer any buffering to affect all the chemical solution.

The latter crash will almost certainly kill the fish. But leading up to that, the continual fluctuations up and down are highly stressful and these weaken the fish.

It is best to use these solutions in tanks without live fish. If after say a week the pH is remaining stable, it should be safe.
Thanks Byron , I was thinking about that and I agree with the statement about waiting a week after the PH is "stable" .

Will 2 small, 1 medium and 1 Large pieces of Driftwood help to maintain a lower PH?

What are your thoughts on using Peat Moss to lower the PH?
VerdantGrotto is offline  
post #33 of 174 Old 12-26-2012, 01:53 PM
Member
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerdantGrotto View Post
Thanks Byron , I was thinking about that and I agree with the statement about waiting a week after the PH is "stable" .

Will 2 small, 1 medium and 1 Large pieces of Driftwood help to maintain a lower PH?

What are your thoughts on using Peat Moss to lower the PH?
I certainly hope you're not confusing stable with constant. It is entirely possible to that a constant value that is unstable and a varying values that are stable. Because stable is defined as the reaction of a system to stress that result in values that deviate from some steady state. If the system tends to return to the steady state it is positively stable, remain at the new state it is neutrally stable, and further deviate from the steady state it is negatively stable (or unstable).

PH is one parameter where that is particularly true. A constant pH could be ready to go south at any minute. But a system with a daily pH drop can self correct to maintain that same drop.

I do agree with running a new planted tank for week to let things settle and condition the tank, and get the plants established and rooted. I then add (10g) a single fish and not add food for a week. Then add some more fish and start very light feedings--- like 1 flake per day.

I use peat moss in my FW tanks which have no mechanical circulation nor filtration. PH rises to 8.4-8.8 (api high range test kit) over a few weeks. What the peat does do is prevent the kh and gh rises and neon tetras seem to do much better.

So I recommend you do nothing to lower pH. After all low carbon dioxide can hardly be unhealthy for the fish.

Just some thoughts worth at most.

.02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/

Last edited by beaslbob; 12-26-2012 at 01:56 PM.
beaslbob is offline  
post #34 of 174 Old 12-26-2012, 02:30 PM Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
I certainly hope you're not confusing stable with constant. It is entirely possible to that a constant value that is unstable and a varying values that are stable. Because stable is defined as the reaction of a system to stress that result in values that deviate from some steady state. If the system tends to return to the steady state it is positively stable, remain at the new state it is neutrally stable, and further deviate from the steady state it is negatively stable (or unstable).

PH is one parameter where that is particularly true. A constant pH could be ready to go south at any minute. But a system with a daily pH drop can self correct to maintain that same drop.

I do agree with running a new planted tank for week to let things settle and condition the tank, and get the plants established and rooted. I then add (10g) a single fish and not add food for a week. Then add some more fish and start very light feedings--- like 1 flake per day.

I use peat moss in my FW tanks which have no mechanical circulation nor filtration. PH rises to 8.4-8.8 (api high range test kit) over a few weeks. What the peat does do is prevent the kh and gh rises and neon tetras seem to do much better.

So I recommend you do nothing to lower pH. After all low carbon dioxide can hardly be unhealthy for the fish.

Just some thoughts worth at most.

.02
Some of what you said is kinda confusing but I think I got the Jist of it.
Although, I don't want my PH to be 8.4 to 8.8 which is what you said the Peat Moss would do. I thought it was supposed to lower it? The PH level in my currrent tank(10 Gallon) is around 7.0 if I am going to be able to put those fish into the new 55 gallon (which is at 8.4) shouldn't the PH be relatively close to one another ? Otherwise it could kill them right?

Also you said something about not feeding them for a week? That seems excessive doesn't it? Why would one want to wait that long before feeding the fish in the newly established tank?
VerdantGrotto is offline  
post #35 of 174 Old 12-26-2012, 03:06 PM
Member
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerdantGrotto View Post
Some of what you said is kinda confusing but I think I got the Jist of it.
perhaps that is very common to those who read beaslbob posts.
Quote:
Although, I don't want my PH to be 8.4 to 8.8 which is what you said the Peat Moss would do. I thought it was supposed to lower it?
The peat moss actually does lower the pH. My point was (or should have been) that even with peat moss in the substrait the pH rose to high levels in my planted tanks.
Quote:
The PH level in my currrent tank(10 Gallon) is around 7.0 if I am going to be able to put those fish into the new 55 gallon (which is at 8.4) shouldn't the PH be relatively close to one another ? Otherwise it could kill them right?
basically yes. Conditions should match as much as possible. And of course acclimation is important as well
Quote:

Also you said something about not feeding them for a week? That seems excessive doesn't it? Why would one want to wait that long before feeding the fish in the newly established tank?
Because when I fed (even 1 flake per day) that first fish slowed down on the 4th day, was motionless on the bottom and breathing heavy the 5th day and died on the 6th. Just like clockwork. So one time I just didn't "waste" the food that first week and that first fish lived. As have all first fish since. And I don't consider it starvation as the fish is eating bugs and stuff that come in on the plants. And are active and pooping nicely etc etc etc.

FWIW when I go on vacation I just go. And return two weeks later to a nice tank with fish glad to see me.

Fish in the wild can go for weeks with not food.


my .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
beaslbob is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to beaslbob For This Useful Post:
VerdantGrotto (12-26-2012)
post #36 of 174 Old 12-26-2012, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
Thanks Belzabub
VerdantGrotto is offline  
post #37 of 174 Old 12-26-2012, 03:27 PM
Member
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerdantGrotto View Post
Thanks Belzabub
busted at last!

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
beaslbob is offline  
post #38 of 174 Old 12-26-2012, 04:13 PM
Member
 
Byron's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerdantGrotto View Post
Thanks Byron , I was thinking about that and I agree with the statement about waiting a week after the PH is "stable" .

Will 2 small, 1 medium and 1 Large pieces of Driftwood help to maintain a lower PH?
Probably, but the extent depends upon the initial GH and KH of the source water. See below too.

Quote:
What are your thoughts on using Peat Moss to lower the PH?
If the intended pH lowering is significant, the best way is with pure water. Using any organic plant material such as wood, leaves, peat will work, depending how much is used, the initial values, and the tank's biological chemisty.

As you're at 7.0 now, I would just let the pH lower naturally; it should do so once the tank is established, provided the KH of the source water is not sufficient to prevent this.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
Byron is offline  
post #39 of 174 Old 12-27-2012, 08:28 AM Thread Starter
Well when I tested the PH levels of both tanks last night they both registered at 7.8 ( I used the API Master Test Kit )

This is confusing me because I could have sworn that my PH level in the current 10 Gallon was at 7.0 ( Used Tetra Quick Test Strips )

I did a water change in the 10 Gallon Tuesday evening with Tap Water ( The same water source I used to fill the 55 Gallon )

If both of these levels are close to each other would it be ok to introduce the diamond Tetras tomorrow ?

Should I wait longer ? ( Tank was set up Sunday with Plants and the Clarity has improved Tremendously )

I've done two 20% water changes since Sunday and added the API Water Condition and Bacteria.
VerdantGrotto is offline  
post #40 of 174 Old 12-27-2012, 08:30 AM Thread Starter
7.8 seems kinda high for an Angel ( It will be a month or two before they are introduced to the new 55 )
VerdantGrotto is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Changing from salt water to fresh water kcfehring Freshwater and Tropical Fish 2 08-07-2009 05:43 PM
Changing from salt water to fresh water kcfehring Beginner Saltwater Aquariums 1 08-05-2009 01:16 PM
Skimmer in fresh water? Twistersmom Saltwater Aquarium Equipment 10 03-28-2009 01:13 PM
Fresh water flounder???????? bf2king Brackish Water 13 01-16-2008 08:00 PM
Salt water vs. fresh water tank for a beginner humsuplou Beginner Saltwater Aquariums 6 12-13-2007 09:32 PM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome