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Salt may actually benefit some parasites.

This is a discussion on Salt may actually benefit some parasites. within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Originally Posted by Byron Yes I do hold the opinion that salt has no place in a freshwater aquarium. This opinion is based upon ...

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Salt may actually benefit some parasites.
Old 02-05-2012, 03:46 PM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by Byron View Post
Yes I do hold the opinion that salt has no place in a freshwater aquarium. This opinion is based upon science and common sense, and the opposite viewpoint lacks both. If healthy fish and a stable biological system is the goal of the aquarist, the best thing to put into a freshwater aquarium every week is fresh water during a water change. This will guarantee healthy fish.

"This opinion is based upon science and common sense, and the opposite viewpoint lacks both"? I guess the debate is over now and we're on to insulting remarks.

Nothing can guarantee healthy fish, why would you even suggest such a thing? I believe that anyone truly concerned about the health of their fish wouldn't add CO2 turning the water to carbonic acid, ferts that can poison the fish, or blinding, unnatural lighting that damages their eyes. But that's my opinion, differing opinions are welcome.

Last edited by afremont; 02-05-2012 at 03:55 PM..
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:54 PM   #22
 
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Originally Posted by yyankeeyankeefan View Post
i am learning that lots of what i have been told is wrong.
I commend you for taking enough time to read that you have discovered this on your own. There is a vast divide about many things aquarium related. When it comes to things like salt, fishless cycling and bacteria in a bottle, you'll see that many of these forums operate like religious sects when it comes to the local opinion on these things. You'll also find that even reading scientific papers will not remove the disagreements.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:55 PM   #23
 
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You are not going to win your argument by logic, and I will still provide responses where I can.

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Are you saying that I"m incorrect with my assessment of the origin of the 60ppm stress claim? It was not a point issue of the paper and it was not tested or observed by any of the authors, correct?
Have you read the articles? I've no idea how the authors arrived at their conclusions. But I do know that to dispute their findings without contradictory fact is meaningless. And as no one that I have ever come across has been able to do this, I accept their findings.

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Personally, I don't equate a minor amount of salt to tylenol, more like soap. We don't encounter soap very much in nature, yet we all use it daily as a preventative treatment. It's also a great eye irritant.
The point I was trying to make here is that salt may be effective as a treatment for something specific. But unless that something specific is present, indescriminate use of salt in an attempt to prevent something that has not yet occurred--and for all we know likely will not occur if proper aquarium husbandry is followed--is foolish, tantamount to us taking any medication without reason.

These folks seem to think that salt helps with osmoregulation and as a preventative parasiticide:
VM86/VM007: The Use of Salt in Aquaculture

I never said salt wasn't useful as a specific treatment. As for a preventative [regular use for no reason], you should read this document more carefully. It is primarily dealing with specific treatments, except for one section and the final paragraph of that section is worth noting [my emphasis]:
Finally, a light solution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may be used as a permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations; however, tetras and fish that navigate by electrical field (e.g., elephant nose) should not be maintained in salt.
I don't know their definition of "tetra" but I doubt they are aquarists; I apply this to all soft water fish, and this is supported by the scientific side.

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Here's some more people that think that salt helps with osmoregulation in freshwater fish:
Osmoregulation in Fish
This article has no author's name, and the site is the business of selling fish. But it's conclusions appear to be erroneous. The following is from one omy earlier links.
Salt and "stress." There is another wide-spread misconception, that some salt permanently in the water is "easing the stress" of osmotic pressure. This misconception is actively encouraged by packagers of "aquarium" salt. You'll hear this old tale repeated so often that, if it came to a vote, it might be voted "true." Most likely, this mis-application of "stress" comes from the idea of osmotic "pressure." Any pressure, such as social pressure, must result in some "stress" to the organism, such as social stress that's the thought, anyway and if osmotic pressure could be reduced, or even equalized, so that the surrounding water were at the same concentration as blood and tissues, then osmotic "stress" would be reduced. The fish would have to do less metabolic "work" to maintain osmolarity in its blood and tissue. I've even been told that the energy saved could then be applied to fortifying the immune system. These "logical" conclusions aren't based on the actual physiology of freshwater fishes. But this is a mis-reading of the meaning of "pressure" in this case. Though peer pressure may result in stress, not all pressures result in stress. For example, atmospheric pressure doesn't result in stress. And neither does osmotic pressure. Fishes have evolved to adjust within certain limits to salt levels, ranging from virtually zero to water more saline than average seawater. No species of fish however will thrive at every level. Not all fishes are tolerant of change: the few that are warrant a special designation, "euryhaline." You know these things. But you will still hear lots of well-intentioned talk about salt and "stress," often from quite experienced aquarists. Listen skeptically, and I think you'll recognize this basic mis-connection between "pressure" and "stress." Other opinions of magic powers of salt are just chit-chat. Take them with a grain of, um, whatever... Or compare this good cautious article from the Aquascience Research Group, which may dissuade you from adding salt to the freshwater aquarium, if I haven't been able to convince you.
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These were just the top two results from Google, and I also have books that also say the same thing.
The value one can assign to any book is the knowledge of the author--something that applies to the above article too. Views change as new discoveries are made. Most of us today acknowledge the value and necessity of partial water changes. But the little books I had available to me when I started in this hobby were quite the opposite. Their fish lived, as do mine. But is their method of never changing water better? No. If our aim is to provide the best care we can, then we must be prepared to listen to those with the knowledge.

I previously didn't pick up on your comment about internal organs and salt, but it is now a proven scientific fact that soft water fish maintained in hard water do eventually succumb to various ailments brought on solely by the mineral salts in the water. Blockage of the kidneys is even mentioned in the Aquarium Atlas of Baensch and Riehl written in the mid 1980's, and today this is widely accepted after further scientific examination of fish. And yes, I used the term mineral salts, which is also used in your first link. The salts of any mineral, be it calcium or magnesium or sodium, does have a toll on these fish.
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:03 PM   #24
 
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Nothing can guarantee healthy fish, why would you even suggest such a thing.
Proper husbandry can guarantee the best road to healthy fish.

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I believe that anyone truly concerned about the health of their fish wouldn't add CO2 turning the water to carbonic acid, ferts that can poison the fish, or blinding, unnatural lighting that damages there eyes. But that's my opinion, differing opinions are welcome.
For the record, I do not add CO2; nor do I have bright lighting. On the CO2, I will leave that to one of the CO2 experts. But I will point out that this cannot be taken out of context. CO2 in hard water can be beneficial to fish requiring softer water. And one would have to research levels of these substances in natural waters to get a complete picture.

If you read any of my posts on lighting, or the article I authored, you will see that I always advocate minimal lighting, and then floating plants to further minimize it. There is a decided effect of bright overhead light on fish as pointed out in the article.

As for fertilizers, there is not the slightest evidence that minimal use of a balanced nutrient fertilizer will cause any damage to fish or invertebrates. They will if overdosed, true. But the plants take them up very quickly as nutrients or toxins.
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:17 PM   #25
 
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Originally Posted by Byron View Post
You are not going to win your argument by logic, and I will still provide responses where I can.



Have you read the articles? I've no idea how the authors arrived at their conclusions. But I do know that to dispute their findings without contradictory fact is meaningless. And as no one that I have ever come across has been able to do this, I accept their findings.

How about this, have you forgotten already:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...e-90634/page2/
There your own words that I was referring to. I wanted to read the article, remember? "aquarium literature" is not a valid reference. I believe you are being disingenuous when you continue to recite the 60ppm blurb when you know full well where the information came from and that it was not a referenced fact.

My contradictory "fact" is that I have red serpaes living in >750ppm of salt water and they are fine. And that's an actual observation.
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:37 PM   #26
 
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How about this, have you forgotten already:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...e-90634/page2/
There your own words that I was referring to. I wanted to read the article, remember? "aquarium literature" is not a valid reference. I believe you are being disingenuous when you continue to recite the 60ppm blurb when you know full well where the information came from and that it was not a referenced fact
You are grasping at straws and ones that don't support your initial views. As I have more recently mentioned, if acknowledged authorities like SW make these statements, it is for equally-knowledgeable scientists to refute them. Which none did, hence the facts are established as such.

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My contradictory "fact" is that I have red serpaes living in >750ppm of salt water and they are fine. And that's an actual observation.
This is not a fact of the argument at all. It only shows that these fish are currently alive. You've no idea how they are being affected internally, nor how long they will live.

As other threads here have shown, fish can manage under intolerable conditions. That doesn't mean we should subject them to them, just to prove out point that they can.

The bottom line is that there is absolutely no scientific evidence that adding dosium chloride (salt as we generally think of it) to a freshwater aquarium has any positive benefit, meaning the fish are better with it than without; and there is scientific evidence that some fish are definitely not better with it. Most would draw the conclusion from this that it is best not to add salt generally and without a specific treatmeent in mind.
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:03 PM   #27
 
Grasping at straws? I thought I made my point very clear with that.

Actually I can tell allot about the health of my fish; I observe them. My red serpaes are as colorful as any photograph I've found on the net. They also behave exactly as they should. As for not knowing how long they will live or how the salt is affecting them, the same applies to people using plant ferts. You can't honestly say that you know how that's affecting their organs, so it's moot for you to use that argument against salt. Also, there is plenty of scientific evidence that prophylactic salt usage is quite effective at controlling many parasites, you quoted one yourself to make a different point. To keep insisting that none exists when you quote it yourself is pointless.

If I had corys or other fish that were not tolerant of salt, I wouldn't put salt in the tank. If I add any fish that navigate using an electric field I"ll keep the salt out as well. As for water changes, I do tons of them. There is no better "medicine" than new water. I love my fish, if I honestly thought that salt was harming them I wouldn't use it. It's the same with you and plant ferts I suppose.

I don't want people to take my word for anything, I want them to read and decide for themselves.
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:10 PM   #28
 
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My red serpaes are as colorful as any photograph I've found on the net. They also behave exactly as they should. As for not knowing how long they will live or how the salt is affecting them, the same applies to people using plant ferts. You can't honestly say that you know how that's affecting their organs, so it's moot for you to use that argument against salt.
This is comparable to comparing apples to oranges. We have evidence of the detrimental effects salt can have with soft water fish. There is no evidence of any from minimal dosing of natural nutrients--substances found in the fish's habitat waters which cannot be said of salt because it is not there.

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Also, there is plenty of scientific evidence that prophylactic salt usage is quite effective at controlling many parasites, you quoted one yourself to make a different point.
As the original article noted, this "evidence" is now coming under more scrunity and it no longer holds up. Specific treatment is quite another matter.

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As for water changes, I do tons of them. There is no better "medicine" than new water.
On this I certainly will agree, 100%. Just don't weaken the benefits by adding salt.
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:04 PM   #29
 
I understand where you're coming from with the no salt in nature thing. I also must consider the limited environment that an aquarium represents. As much as we'd like it to be so, an aquarium is not a very good approximation of a natural environment. In nature, fish are in a constant water change condition; it's not some weekly ritual that frightens the fish. Also in nature, when an ich parasite detaches from a fish and becomes a cyst, chances are virtually zero that any of the offspring are going to cause a real outbreak in the general population, much less overwhelm the same fish. In an aquarium, it's almost a certainty that it will happen. The same goes for bacteria, the density of the fish population and the miniscule amount of water compared to a natural environment leads to problems in real hurry and nothing is there to kill it, unlike nature.

Since I can't really approximate nature by giving my fish hundreds or thousands of water per inch of fish, I do what I think is the next best thing and treat prophylactically by adding some salt. I think it's a given that most fish can "tolerate" it as the florida state article said, and for any one parasite that might gains an advantage, there are scores more that don't survive. I'm just trying to play the percentages and make the best of the piles of conflicting information available. I'm also trying to head off as many problems as I can by doing frequent water changes with "properly treated" water.
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