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The Sad Truth About Your Fish Tank

This is a discussion on The Sad Truth About Your Fish Tank within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Nature may consider life replaceable, indifferent bloody mistress that she is. That doesn't mean we as people should be just as cold and uncaring. ...

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The Sad Truth About Your Fish Tank
Old 05-08-2012, 02:52 PM   #21
 
Nature may consider life replaceable, indifferent bloody mistress that she is. That doesn't mean we as people should be just as cold and uncaring. You can't stop people from eating meat, no more than you can stop people from keeping pets. What you can do though is try to stomp out unnecessary willful (or by ignorance) cruelty.

That's all I can say in a thread like this. Every step you take as a person tends to have blood on your hands somewhere. Even being a full out vegan puts animal blood on your hands. What you can you do? Do your research, make choices that matter, and educate people to become better people and better caretakers of the only planet we have.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:56 PM   #22
 
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I find this statement quite interesting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boise1024 View Post
Animals suffer, that is the way of nature.
Karma, Knowledge and Wisdom. That's what that makes me think of.

Enlighten yourself and break the chain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boise1024 View Post
But what will happen of all this land we now use to mass-produce fish, cattle, poultry, etc ? Nothing, there cannot be a cycle. The land is polluted, unsuitable for anything. It's not a sustainable cycle. And that we should be aware, and should fight to prevent, even more than animal cruelty. Because what is better : a world full of lush life and normal life/death cycle, or a world void of everything that lives ?
Cattle Sollution - Grass Fed Cows
Fish Solution - The TED Video I posted

We just now have to find and support these people who use these methods so they can take over

and if you liked that Dan Barber video, check this one out. Just as amazing although doesn't deal with fish:
Dan Barber's foie gras parable | Video on TED.com

----

Going back to the original issue of fish keeping.

It seems in my mind that there are two main problems:

1 - The lack of knowledge possessed by the potential fish keepers
2 - The Pet Stores ability to sell and educate their customers on pets.

Mika made the greatest point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikaila31 View Post
Thats only happening because we want fish. If you buy local breed or "breeder quality" fish there is likely culling involved. Especially with things like the thialand bettas you see for sale online. Breeders don't raise every fry it would be too much effort. They cull constantly in the end being left with a handful of high end fry.
If the fish keepers (us) purchase our fish from breeders than the prices will go up on PetSmart and PetCo type dealers....wouldn't you think? That would be a long...hard...and very slow process....that would eventually make a change.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguinefox View Post
Nature may consider life replaceable, indifferent bloody mistress that she is. That doesn't mean we as people should be just as cold and uncaring. You can't stop people from eating meat, no more than you can stop people from keeping pets. What you can do though is try to stomp out unnecessary willful (or by ignorance) cruelty.

That's all I can say in a thread like this. Every step you take as a person tends to have blood on your hands somewhere. Even being a full out vegan puts animal blood on your hands. What you can you do? Do your research, make choices that matter, and educate people to become better people and better caretakers of the only planet we have.
A slow and long process that we will never give up on Sang. I agree.

---

Edit:

I think its people like Tapil that make a difference in the world Today. People who see a problem and are patient with it. They are motivated to make a change and go about doing so in a slow way that will work.

We can all do our part and I want to thank everyone here for sharing all they know and what they have experienced. It has really shed light on many new facts and ideas that I cannot thank you all enough for it.

Last edited by Termato; 05-08-2012 at 03:03 PM..
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:22 PM   #23
 
I really don't want to focus on other animals like beef in this thread as thats going off topic. I will simply state while grass feed is better for the cow I don't see it better for the world as a whole. Its a viable option for those that can afford the extra cost, but its not for the major public. You need alot of land for grazing, much of which was originally forests. Tearing down the forests for pasture displaces all the animals that lived there. Feed lots are high and fast gain in a small area, which the ever growing population is pretty dependent on. I personally don't eat beef very often, I'm for more sustainable less impact food sources. Regardless of where a cow comes from it has a pretty high input compared to other options I find tastier like chicken and fish. Not to mention how expensive it is in comparison.

My view on agriculture might be somewhat skewed though as I do come from a very agricultural university, which owns a number of farms and has a meat processing/slaughter facility on campus. There is a ton of science behind those places.

Quote:
So what is the answer then? do we bandage those bleeding hearts, and just accept idiotic owners, inhumane shipment conditions, stressful containment in over stocked store tanks, and ultimately being poisoned by their own waste, when we start to neglect the water changes. is there anything we can do? other than not keep fish?
All depends on your view. I've been in this hobby for quite a few years. I personally accept most of what you typed. Idiotic owners will be idiotic and IMO there is no wasting breath on them or their fish. If someone whats advice then by all means I'll give them advice, however it they want to do things their way then I'm fine with letting them. I've seen tons of horribly kept tanks over the years. If the owner doesn't want to fix it, then oh well IMO. They are their fish, not mine. I can sarcastically wish them luck and move on.

I agree that most newbies lack education, however I don't see how that in any way falls to the pet store. The stores point is to sell fish not teach you about them. IMO it lies completely and fully on the new owner if they lack the knowledge to look into a pet before buying it. Just like a dealership is there to sell you cars not make sure you maintain know how to maintain them properly.

I don't really see how culling is much different then all the uneducated killing of fish. Its simply the difference between intentional and unintentional killing. However one or the other must happen. Even if everyone took good care of fish the result would be an increase in culling. You can expect care to be given to every guppy fry born in a tank, its simply impossible. Even within the hobby its considered okay to sell them to stores, where there chances of finding good homes are slim. Its also perfectly okay to just feed them to another fish and avoid the trouble of growing them out. The general consensus in this hobby is fish are replaceable because in truth they are.

I don't find the hobby abusive. Yes fish are kept in a glass box. If you analyze it from a human perspective its considered abusive. Analyze it from the fishes perspective and it doesn't perceive that it is in a glass box when it should be in a lake or river half way around the world. If fish keeping is abusive then so is the keeping of any other pet. However is it less or more abusive then nature?
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:43 PM   #24
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikaila31 View Post
I agree that most newbies lack education, however I don't see how that in any way falls to the pet store. The stores point is to sell fish not teach you about them. IMO it lies completely and fully on the new owner if they lack the knowledge to look into a pet before buying it. Just like a dealership is there to sell you cars not make sure you maintain know how to maintain them properly.
I just want to say that the difference is that the pet store is selling you a live creature. We don't have organizations for mal treatment of cars.

The thing is that Corporations are treating animals inhumanly, as you so very well put it, and could do a MUCH better job.

I agree 100% that it is up to the owner to educate themselves before getting the pet.
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:14 PM   #25
 
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Thanks for your reasoning, it does make sense to me. and what you say is right.

You will have to forgive my naivety, as you can probably guess I am fairly new to the hobby and learning lots, all of the time! I guess I never really considered anything to do with fish or fish keeping until I started researching online and visiting this forum etc.

My personal point I made about the pet stores being in some way responsible, was to do with the moral dilemma of what do you do if you see the same crazy old woman coming in every week to buy new fish, because the others have died. I personally would want to step in a say something (whether that information would be appreciated or not is another matter) that was my knee-jerk reaction, and I still would think that way. Ultimately it would be like you say a waste of my breath, and probably fall on deaf ears. its a loose loose situation, if you sell more fish, and keep your mouth shut you know the fish are going to an idiot, if you refuse to sell them then the idiot goes elsewhere and still gets the fish anyway... futile.

This thread has gotten rather deep, and we're not going to save the world or stop idiots killing fish.

Your right about the viewing things from a human perspective rather than from the fish's perspective. I guess thats where we are falling down, millions upon millions of fish will live and die in their natural environments regardless of what the pet industry is doing. At least fish that are kept in captivity, the ones that survive the transit and store tanks might get the chance to live a fairly natural life in a tank of an educated aquarist, and those that don't... well they were going to die anyway, either by being part of the food chain, or when the rivers dry up or whatever natural selection takes place.

I still feel sorry for any animal that has to suffer, or die unnecessarily, even in the wild I feel sorry for the gazelles being hunted down by the lions etc.. soft at heart. (yes I eat meat, not much, and I dislike that an animal has to die for me to eat its flesh)

But I thank you for providing a different approach to thinking regarding this subject.
cheers
Simon
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:04 PM   #26
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhymon78 View Post

My personal point I made about the pet stores being in some way responsible, was to do with the moral dilemma of what do you do if you see the same crazy old woman coming in every week to buy new fish, because the others have died. I personally would want to step in a say something (whether that information would be appreciated or not is another matter) that was my knee-jerk reaction, and I still would think that way. Ultimately it would be like you say a waste of my breath, and probably fall on deaf ears. its a loose loose situation, if you sell more fish, and keep your mouth shut you know the fish are going to an idiot, if you refuse to sell them then the idiot goes elsewhere and still gets the fish anyway... futile.
Most of the shops I use offer pretty good advice if you want it. I've seen both good and bad shops sell fish into tanks were their survival is unlikely. I've seen and had shops refuse any guarantee on fish if they expect the fish to die. The good shops give a warning to the customers. I have a local one I don't like or buy from that will not offer any guarantee on fish going to a new tank, but they won't tell you are cycling either, but they have pretty bad stock to start from. But its not really to encourage proper fish care, its more so that the shop doesn't loose money on a bunch of fish that the owner killed. But it does indirectly encourage people to at least keep their fish alive.
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Old 05-10-2012, 12:04 AM   #27
 
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Years ago when I first started the hobby, I was stopped from making an uninformed and just lain stupid mistake.

I went to buy a 10 gallon starter kit to begin my fish keeping. I had the kit, food and chemicals in my cart and then went to buy the fish. The associate came to me and asked if she could help. I told her the fish I wanted. She looked at my cart and asked if I was going to put them in that tank. I said yes. She then informed me to set the tank up first and wait a few weeks. She gave me a handout about cycling and fish care. She then told me to come back in a few weeks with a sample of my water before she would allow me to buy the fish. Thank goodness for her. If she would have been like most fish store employees, she would have bagged the fish for me that day without care or concern.

I'm far from an expert, and like most I learn something new every day.

You know, they make you get a license and learn regulations before they allow you to fish in most places. Too bad the same isn't true for fish keeping hobbyists like us. Just my 2 cents. I don't think taking an short online class/test and forking over a $10 fee for a license to keep fish is asking to much.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:49 PM   #28
 
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The origional post was a true horror story

Personally i look after my lil friends better than i do myself! The current aquarium is my 1st since moving back to the city i grew up in (origionally had 1 before leaving to work away for 12 years).

My stepdad also has an aquarium, he would do regular water changes and vacuum the gravel but then put in water without dechlorinating it, from tap to tank! Also had only artificial plants in it, sadlly tho he would lose a fish a week on average and wonder why?

Since iv had mine up and running tho hes taken a far greater interest in better up keeping, now dechlorinates the water, got live plants and his fish are thriving! It took alot of nagging and parcels turning up on his dorstep of chemicals and the such, i supply him with decent fish food as part of the deal as a sweetener and also test his perameters and they are perfect!! As a reward iv also started him off with a small colony of crs and they to are thriving!

Next step is my brother, his aquarium is all artificial altho he does do the right things for water quality i must bring him round to the benfits of live plants.He also is going to have a starter colony of crs to encourage his efforts

I guess if everyone spends a little time with friends or relatives that has aquaria to guide them in a good direction stories like the 1 that started this thread will be a thing of the past, but hey theres always someone that thinks they know better and wont change there habbits!
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:37 PM   #29
 
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I was visiting my friend and her family has had this fantail goldfish in a five gallon tops tank for several years now. :/ I have always been hinting at upgrading the tank and they finally did (to a 10 gal). I know that one of the members wants a lrage tank so I can only hope this happens soon. :/

The worst part? They want to add fish with the fantail into the 10 gal... I sacrificed my homework tim to accopmany them to the pet store with a water sample. I then did my best job to point out the diseases and dead fish in the tanks (being a chain store) and telling them which fish would get too big. I managed to get them to hold back because of making the disease noticable and having them learn that their uncylced tank has ammonia in it. T_T

If I didn't go with them I wonder what they would have come with... (they were pointing out Bala Sharks, large goldfish breeds, ect. Basically anything that wouldn't fit in their tank)

Since they still wanted fish I made up a list of fish for micro tanks that should fit in with the tempermate of their fish and parameters of the tank. :/ The other day I also informed them that the light on the tank needs to be turned off at night... My brother (who I just started teaching on how to care for my fish when I'm away) knows more about them than they do. (he's seven....)
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