Question about Prime with Meds/ Ferts - Page 2 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #11 of 25 Old 02-21-2010, 06:55 AM
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I think most medications are likely to be large organic molecules. In other words, I doubt that Prime or any other water conditioner would do much to them. I wouldn't worry.

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post #12 of 25 Old 02-21-2010, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by iamntbatman View Post
I think most medications are likely to be large organic molecules. In other words, I doubt that Prime or any other water conditioner would do much to them. I wouldn't worry.
How about your opinion as far as Prime affecting the integrity of ferts?

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post #13 of 25 Old 02-21-2010, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
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I'd generally be careful (in a way) with any conditioner and liquid ferts.

Any good conditioner will remove metals and Chlorine which all of what you find in a good comprehensive fert. So adding the fert right the sec you add conditioner may or may not resolve in it being neutralized; after all that's what you want your conditioner to do and it can not differ between what's from your tap or from the ferts.
So just to keep it easy I'd simply add the liquid ferts a day after doing the w/c.

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post #14 of 25 Old 02-21-2010, 11:42 AM
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Yes, it was Byron who mentioned waiting a day to fertilize after a pwc. I never knew that either, but I now follow his suggestion.

As for Prime, when I first started up my 55g tank I had an Ich outbreak (with only 3 fish in the tank at that time). I used RidIch to get rid of the Ich and Prime as my water conditioner. The RidIch took care of the Ich problem and I've never had another outbreak. I can't seem to find anything on the internet either regarding if Prime will detoxify meds. From my experience though, I'd have to say no.
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post #15 of 25 Old 02-21-2010, 11:52 AM
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And that's news, this Sunday morning. I'm Walter Kronkite..... errr wait. flashback
I think you're good Nat, in using Prime with meds.

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post #16 of 25 Old 02-21-2010, 02:44 PM
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Exclamation Eff3ct of Water Conditioners on Fertilizer

Yes, I think I was the one who introduced that topic in another thread. I contacted Seachem directly and had a discussion which I'll repeat here. This is strictly with respect to plant fertilizers, I've no idea on any effect on medications.

Odd that it never occurred to me previously, after so many years of dosing liquid fertilizer after the weekly partial water change. What actually put me on to this was a thread about Prime detoxifying ammonia, nitrite and nitrate; I wondered to myself just how long it would work in the aquarium. That led me to realize that Prime also detoxifies heavy metals. Most water conditioners detoxify heavy metals; those that do say so, and only one or two don't. Among "heavy metals" there is iron, copper, manganese and zinc that are also micro-nutrients essential to plants.

I contacted Seachem and asked how long Prime would continue to be effective at detoxifying ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and heavy metals; I mentioned that I used Flourish Comprehensive after each pwc, and Flourish contains some heavy metals that are micro-nutrients. In response, I was advised that Prime will only be effective on minute traces of heavy metals such as normally found in tap water. It cannot be relied upon to detoxify high levels of heavy metals. The minute level of heavy metals in Flourish would be detoxified by Prime. Seachem recommended waiting 24 hours after using Prime before using Flourish. Out of an abundance of caution, they suggested perhaps 48 hours, but they felt very little if any detoxifying by Prime would occur after 24 hours. This applies to ammonia, nitrite, etc., as well.

I have now changed my fertilization to the morning after the day on which I do the pwc. I have also reduced the twice weekly dose to once. I am wondering if the water conditioner was detoxifying the initial dose of fertilizer and this is what made a second weekly dose seem necessary. It is probably too early yet to ascertain the results of this.

I have never used Prime, and don't intend to now, as I have no need of its nitrogen detoxification and I would prefer not messing with the natural balance in this manner. I have for decades used Kordon's NovAqua, the original, which detoxifies chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals, and as I say, most conditioners do these. I see no reason why NovAqua or any other would not detoxify the micro-nutrients any less than Prime, so the information should be taken to apply to all conditioners that detoxify metals, not just Prime.

Byron.

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Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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post #17 of 25 Old 02-21-2010, 03:05 PM
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How does one tell if they need nitrogen detox or not? Is nitrite considered a subset of nitrogen? I guess I am trying to figure out if I should be using Prime as I have been or moving to NovAqua.

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post #18 of 25 Old 02-21-2010, 03:24 PM
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How does one tell if they need nitrogen detox or not? Is nitrite considered a subset of nitrogen? I guess I am trying to figure out if I should be using Prime as I have been or moving to NovAqua.
In the aquarium, nitrogen occurs as ammonia/ammonium, nitrite and nitrate. Nitrogen gas we can exclude for this discussion, as it is only a product of anaerobic bacteria activity and not normally an issue.

As you know, in a healthy aquarium ammonia comes from fish and biological processes, and it is consumed in two ways, by nitrosomonas bacteria and by plants in a planted tank. Nitrite only occurs naturally as the second stage of the nitrification process from nitrosomonas bacteria, and another bacteria called nitrospira (and perhaps some others) use the nitrite and nitrate is produced. Nitrate is removed by the regular water change.

In a planted aquarium, the plants use most of the ammonia (as ammonium, or by changing it to ammonium themselves). Some plants also use nitrate, but most prefer nitrogen as ammonium; I explain why in Part 2 (and touch on it again in Part 3) of the "Basic Approach..." stickies at the head of the Aquarium Plant section. As the plants are quicker at grabbing the ammonia/ammonium, nitrite and thus nitrate is very low or non-existent in planted aquaria.

As I have planted aquaria, there is never any need for ammonia/nitrite/nitrate detoxifiers because the plants consume most of the ammonia and the bacteria the rest. This is one of many benefits of planted aquaria; nature handles everything--provided we don't interfere and mess it all up. I do have chlorine in my tap water, so my water conditioner must handle chlorine and really nothing else.

In an aquarium without plants, one has to be more vigilant over water quality because nitrates can quickly build up, especially if the fish are overcrowded, there is decaying organics, infrequent water changes, etc.

Then there is the tap water; if it contains ammonia, or nitrite, or nitrate (some tap water does contain one of these) a water conditioner that detoxifies one or all of these forms of nitrogen may be advisable, certainly in a non-planted tank where there is only the bacteria to handle these and it takes bacteria time to multiply if the level increases substantially. In planted tanks the biological equilibrium is capable (or should be if the tank is balanced properly) of handling minor increases from tap water during a partial water change. However, if the level of ammonia or whatever in the tap water is significant, a detoxifying conditioner won't hurt. But personally I would have to have very high levels before I would add such a conditioner to a planted aquarium, since this is bound to have an impact on the balance. The concept behind the natural aquarium is that nature is the major active worker in the tank, and the aquarist only intervenes when essential such as providing fish food, plant food, light and heat, and a water change.

Byron.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]

Last edited by Byron; 02-21-2010 at 03:28 PM.
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post #19 of 25 Old 02-21-2010, 04:12 PM
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You learn something new everyday! I will now be waiting 24 hours after the weekly W/C to dose with liquid ferts. Thanks for the info!

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post #20 of 25 Old 02-21-2010, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pep View Post
How does one tell if they need nitrogen detox or not? Is nitrite considered a subset of nitrogen? I guess I am trying to figure out if I should be using Prime as I have been or moving to NovAqua.
Personally, having used that Stuff now.... If you have Ammonia coming from your tap water then I'd use Prime. If you do not have Ammonia coming from your tap and just deal with chlorine and possibly metals; then I'd get any other good conditioner such as Aquasafe etc and be done with it. Like I said somewhere's further up once this bottle is done I'll also switch back to my old one.

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