Prime usage with a drain/fill device - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #1 of 21 Old 01-22-2013, 09:31 AM Thread Starter
Prime usage with a drain/fill device

We have often had debates over whether to treat for just the new water being added or the entire volume when refilling directly from a faucet. Apparently Seachem Tech support advises to treat for the entire volume of the tank...


Re: Prime usage with drain/fill device
Thanks for the post, Patrick!

I am familiar with the device you are referring to as we use it here in our lab.

It is true that chlorine can be removed by aerating the water or just letting the water sit overnight. However, many water municipalities are using chloramine and it is not as easy to remove from the water.

When filling your aquarium using such a device you will have to add enough Prime to treat the entire volume of water in the aquarium. You can add it while filling (although sometimes difficult) or before filling. This is done to avoid your fish from encountering untreated water since it is being added directly into the aquarium.

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post #2 of 21 Old 01-22-2013, 10:18 AM
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We have often had debates over whether to treat for just the new water being added or the entire volume when refilling directly from a faucet. Apparently Seachem Tech support advises to treat for the entire volume of the tank...


Re: Prime usage with drain/fill device
Thanks for the post, Patrick!

I am familiar with the device you are referring to as we use it here in our lab.

It is true that chlorine can be removed by aerating the water or just letting the water sit overnight. However, many water municipalities are using chloramine and it is not as easy to remove from the water.

When filling your aquarium using such a device you will have to add enough Prime to treat the entire volume of water in the aquarium. You can add it while filling (although sometimes difficult) or before filling. This is done to avoid your fish from encountering untreated water since it is being added directly into the aquarium.
Sure for extreme emergencies resulting in high ammonia this is true. But even then you should use the seachem multitest kit and only treat for the free ammonia not the total ammonia.

But for normal water changes I highly recommend against using Prime and definatley not treating the entire tank.

Treating for say 55g when you are only adding a gallon is very very dangerous IMHO. Most especially when this had been done for some time and all the ammonia you test for is alreay locked up and safe.

Meanwhile, all I have done for decades is plant the tank, wait a week, then add fish slowly. With no water changes just replacing evaporative water with straight untreated chloramine containing water.


Absolutely no signs of stress noted ever.

my .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #3 of 21 Old 01-22-2013, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
Sure for extreme emergencies resulting in high ammonia this is true. But even then you should use the seachem multitest kit and only treat for the free ammonia not the total ammonia.

But for normal water changes I highly recommend against using Prime and definatley not treating the entire tank.

Treating for say 55g when you are only adding a gallon is very very dangerous IMHO. Most especially when this had been done for some time and all the ammonia you test for is alreay locked up and safe.

Meanwhile, all I have done for decades is plant the tank, wait a week, then add fish slowly. With no water changes just replacing evaporative water with straight untreated chloramine containing water.


Absolutely no signs of stress noted ever.

my .02
Though if adding a gallon you might as well treat that one gallon separately, and then add it. If you are doing a water change to a decent sized tank, then why not play it safe and treat for the entire volume of water?

I have been using Prime and a hose from the faucet for water changes in my 55g without issue for over a year now. I drain half of the tank, and then treat for the full 55g before turning on the water. Have not lost a fish yet, all appear healthy, stress free and happy.
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post #4 of 21 Old 01-22-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
Sure for extreme emergencies resulting in high ammonia this is true. But even then you should use the seachem multitest kit and only treat for the free ammonia not the total ammonia.

But for normal water changes I highly recommend against using Prime and definatley not treating the entire tank.

Treating for say 55g when you are only adding a gallon is very very dangerous IMHO. Most especially when this had been done for some time and all the ammonia you test for is alreay locked up and safe.

Meanwhile, all I have done for decades is plant the tank, wait a week, then add fish slowly. With no water changes just replacing evaporative water with straight untreated chloramine containing water.


Absolutely no signs of stress noted ever.

my .02
Been using PRIME as conditioner for several decades.
Is no danger to fishes at even five times the recommended dose in filtered aquarium's. Not sure why anyone would only change a gallon of water when you have the bucket's,hose's already out.
I highly recommend PRIME for water changes and water containing chloramines.
Meanwhile,All I have done is treat for volume of water removed or for tank volume .
depend's on how much water I'm moving out.

The most important medication in your fish medicine cabinet is.. Clean water.
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post #5 of 21 Old 01-22-2013, 11:44 AM
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The treatment will work in the tank for the added water volume, it does not look like there is a problem with diluting the chemical as it reacts with the chloramines and not the water itself. I think that the issue is more handling the ammonia that is released from the chloramine after the sodium thiosulfate (or whatever they happen to use) is done with it. Even less an issue if the water has only chlorine. Perhaps adding enough for the entire volume ensures that it overkills the reaction capability in order to get to all the water quicker.

Could easily be just to sell more product too.... advising to do so doesn't mean it's required.

I'm glad I get to use well water.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
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post #6 of 21 Old 01-22-2013, 04:56 PM
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Everyone here knows my take on this...are you maybe baiting me?

Those of us who have been doing 50% water changes for 15+ years using a Python appliance and only dosing sufficient dechlorinator for the half volume being replaced with never a problem with fish are proof positive that this is sufficient. But--I admit that I have no experience with chloramine in my source water, just chlorine, so I am prepared to accept that there might possibly be a difference with chloramine but this has to be established with a scientific test to be viable.

Second point is the detrimental effect of Prime on fish. Prime, like all substances that are added to an aquarium to somehow change the water chemistry, contains TDS, total dissolved solids. These do affect soft water fish, and the addition of such products should be less rather than more. If it is not necessary, don't add it.

Jeff's point is very well taken, and I have read some very experienced aquarists echoing the same. One has to recognize that Seachem is a business that has to make a profit, and if you are willing to spend twice as much money than I am, so be it.

And just to put all this in a more enlightened context. There is also the fact that Seachem freely admits they do not comprehend how Prime operates chemically to bind nitrite and nitrate. Their instructions on Flourish Comprehensive to refrigerate it has no basis and they themselves say there is no need--so why is it on the label? They market a liquid carbon supplement that is a toxin that has detrimental effects on plants, fish and bacteria, and even humans according to the Material Data Safety Sheet from the government. The point of all this is to think outside the confines of Seachem.

Byron.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]

Last edited by Byron; 01-22-2013 at 04:59 PM.
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post #7 of 21 Old 01-22-2013, 05:12 PM
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There is also the fact that Seachem freely admits they do not comprehend how Prime operates chemically to bind nitrite and nitrate.
You've got to be kidding.... really? Geez, I don't use it and I am almost curious enough to go looking myself and see what might be going on.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
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post #8 of 21 Old 01-22-2013, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Byron View Post
There is also the fact that Seachem freely admits they do not comprehend how Prime operates chemically to bind nitrite and nitrate.
This is true, but from what I've read in their FAQ section, their product was never designed to remove/detoxify nitrite or nitrate which is why they're unfamiliar with the exact mechanisms involved. However, if they're going to advertise their product as being able to do so, then they should have done the additional testing to understand why it does.
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post #9 of 21 Old 01-23-2013, 06:13 AM
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Have kept and or am keeping many soft water species from Discus,appistogramma,cardinal tetra's,rummy nose tetra's, many other's and have seen no ill effect's from using Prime to treat either/or water removed,or tank's volume.(when using Python or similar apparatus)
Neither Seachem nor myself, are in the buisness of killing fish and thousand's of folk's use the product as directed without issues.
Concern's over TDS or conductivity as measured with TDS meter before and after treating particular volume of water with this product or several other's, would be much more useful than crying Wolf in my view.
As mentioned EVERYTHING added to glass box of water increases the TDS or conductivity.(fishfood,fertilizer's,meds,fish poo,salt,tapwater.)
Prime would be WAY down at the bottom of my list for concern.
Hell I performed three to five 50 to 70% weekly water changes a week while raising a group of Discus with German Blue Ram's present, while dosing the PRIME for the tank's volume and never once did this prove to be harmful judging from the growth rate of the fishes ,activity level's,feeding's.
Water was too hard for successful spawning but it did not stop the fish from trying.
I still use product as directed and fishes,invert's(much more sensitive) are fine.
Many other's also do same.

The most important medication in your fish medicine cabinet is.. Clean water.
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post #10 of 21 Old 01-23-2013, 06:14 AM
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Have kept and or am keeping many soft water species from Discus,appistogramma,cardinal tetra's,rummy nose tetra's, many other's and have seen no ill effect's from using Prime to treat either/or water removed,or tank's volume.(when using Python or similar apparatus)
Neither Seachem nor myself, are in the buisness of killing fish and thousand's of folk's use the product as directed without issues.
Concern's over TDS or conductivity as measured with TDS meter before and after treating particular volume of water with this product or several other's, would be much more useful than crying Wolf in my view.
As mentioned EVERYTHING added to glass box of water increases the TDS or conductivity.(fishfood,fertilizer's,meds,fish poo,salt,tapwater,carbon.)
Prime would be WAY down at the bottom of my list for concern.
Hell I performed three to five 50 to 70% weekly water changes a week while raising a group of Discus with German Blue Ram's present, while dosing the PRIME for the tank's volume and never once did this prove to be harmful judging from the growth rate of the fishes ,activity level's,feeding's.
Water was too hard for successful spawning but it did not stop the fish from trying.
I still use product as directed and fishes,invert's(much more sensitive) are fine.
Many other's also do same.

The most important medication in your fish medicine cabinet is.. Clean water.
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