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Possibly a dumb idea

This is a discussion on Possibly a dumb idea within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Everyone is free to believe what they believe work's for them....

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Old 10-12-2012, 06:16 AM   #11
 
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Everyone is free to believe what they believe work's for them.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:12 AM   #12
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron View Post
Dr. Timothy Hovanec led the team of scientists that discovered the true species of nitrifying bacteria after decades of hobbyists and even biologists thought they were something else. Other scientists have come to the same finding, and it is now unquestioned.

As part of this work, "Dr. Tim" (as he calls himself) also perfected the "bacteria in a bottle" method. There is not one shred of scientific evidence against this. And the fact that the true bacterial supplements do work speaks for itself.

The fact that such a product may not seem to work for an individual aquarist is likely due to one or more mitigating factor. Aside from the factors AD already mentioned, there is the big issue of the individual aquarium and what it contains. We all know that even in normal cycling without these products, there is considerable variation and in some cases the cycle does in fact get stalled. These factors can also play into the equation when bacterial supplements are used.

Here's a video on this very topic in which Dr. Tim explains things.
Bacteria in a Bottle: Snake Oil or Worth Trusting? - YouTube
Dr. Tim claims that once his product is placed in the aquarium that ammonia source for bacteria is needed "immediately".
What happen's to bottle of bacteria on store shelf for possibly week's, month's, WITHOUT the ammonia it need's to survive?
You can try and place blame for failure where you wish, but for me,, I shall remain a skeptic based on my own expieriences as well as other's.
Will stand by my assertion that if it worked well for everyone,,(which it don't) word would travel like wildfire and product,(and other's similar) would be much more widely used with success.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:50 AM   #13
 
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Everyone is free to believe what they believe work's for them.
Sure, as long as our beliefs don't fly in the face of proven science and we sound authoritative enough to confuse newcomers to the hobby.

It amazes me how much myth and legend gets communicated in the many fish related forums. Some of it doesn't even pass the litmus test of common sense, yet it gets passed on from hobbyist to hobbyist like some gospel truths.
I guess if you hear something often enough, it must be true.

It's too easy for us as hobbyists to draw conclusions based on our limited experiences.
After all, we don't typically follow design of experiment (DOE) procedures with established control groups. We might try a product once, or maybe twice and if it looks like it works or doesn't work, we're convinced...but we often don't know how 'fresh' the product is or how it was handled or stored before we got it. We don't know if there's something in our system that allows or prevents it from working. We don't have sophisticated water analysis or microscopic evaluation to truly understand all of the variables.

Too often, it comes down to 'I tried it and it didn't work'. While someone else tried it and it worked fine for them. So who's right?
In many cases, only through controlled experiments and scientific study can we obtain sufficient objective evidence to draw firm conclusions.

As it applies to beneficial bacteria products for the aquarium, Dr. Tim explains it best in the video Byron posted. As I recall (watched it long ago) in the early days, they thought the appropriate microbes for the aquarium were the same as those used in waste water treatment plants. After significant study, they realized they were trying to use the wrong bacteria species.

So now, many years down the road, the correct bacteria are in play and if this isn't common knowledge, it should be...and people need to let go of the notions they had based on an experience years ago.

We might also punch holes in the other myths and legends so as not to perpetuate the misinformation communicated by well meaning hobbyists.
Of course this can be a bit of a challenge as I've noticed that some folks are so convinced and 'loud' about their subjective opinions that they can drown out the sound of logic, reason and even scientific study results.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:01 AM   #14
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1077 View Post
Dr. Tim claims that once his product is placed in the aquarium that ammonia source for bacteria is needed "immediately".
What happen's to bottle of bacteria on store shelf for possibly week's, month's, WITHOUT the ammonia it need's to survive?
You can try and place blame for failure where you wish, but for me,, I shall remain a skeptic based on my own expieriences as well as other's.
Will stand by my assertion that if it worked well for everyone,,(which it don't) word would travel like wildfire and product,(and other's similar) would be much more widely used with success.
I should perhaps watch the video again to be sure, but if memory serves me, Dr. Tim is not saying the bottled bacteria will die in the aquarium without ammonia, but more simply that adding it to the aquarium won't do anything unless there is a source of ammonia to get it going and reproducing. This is not any different from seeding the tank by some other method.

We now know from sources other than Dr. Tim that nitrifying bacteria can remain alive in a form of suspended animation, or something like animals that go into hibernation. They don't eat or drink, but they remain alive though completely inactive for months. And if higher forms of life can do this, surely bacteria can; after all, bacteria were here long before any of the rest of us, and they are far quicker at developing survival strategies. Recently I read an article in the local paper about the effect of environmental changes/global warming/climate change on bacteria, and scientists have discovered that many bacteria have already adapted to these changes and have begun to multiply far greater than previously, while the higher forms of life are being reduced. The thrust was that diseases we thought were a thing of the past will re-emerge.

I posted an article from PFK a few months back on the topic of nitrifying bacteria's amazing survival strategy, here it is again:
Think you know filter bacteria? Dream on

Byron.

Last edited by Byron; 10-12-2012 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:17 AM   #15
 
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The video Byron referenced, clearly states that food source must be added after pouring this bacteria in a bottle in the tank. (Doctor Tim's word's not mine)
I am on board with this.(makes perfect sense)
But it passes my understanding that IF these bacteria can indeed go into suspended animation of sort's for month's on store shelf as some suggest,,, then why does food need to be added ,or fish added,directly? (Doctor Tim's words not mine)
Why could one not wait day's, week's,month's before adding fish, or other food source?will not this bacteria lie dormant until such time as food source is added,and then prosper when conditon's are desireable?(I am doubtful)
No,my expierience with these product's as well as many other's,suggest's that mileage varies .
I wish it were otherwise.
I am not trying to mislead any new hobbyist's, nor do I feel I am further perpetrating myth ,there simply isn't enough of success rate for most of these bacteria in a bottle product's to change my view's or warrant the expense.
As mentioned previously,, Everyone is free to believe what they will.

Last edited by 1077; 10-15-2012 at 11:29 AM..
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:06 PM   #16
 
C'mon 1077, what Dr. Tim said is that the beneficial bacteria need ammonia (FOOD) in order to proliferate and START THE CYCLE. Without food, the cycle does not begin much like a tank full of water alone will never cycle N2.

He did NOT say that any delay would destroy the bacteria - he did point out that extremes in temperature (Freezing or 120F) would most likely be detrimental.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:01 PM   #17
 
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His website indicates 95 degree's F as about the limit, and that product sitting in hot warehouse, or on delivery truck, or hot car seat, could be factor in success rate.
He also states that his product is not suited for use with fishless method of cycling, where ammonia level's exceed 4 or 5 ppm. As he say's, this bacteria does not do well with those level's for it is different from the bacteria that sludge plant's,sewage plant's see and is what was largely bottled in the past, with similar product's.
Some places (websites) suggest this product be kept refridgerated (not frozen) and other's suggest two day air service to ensure Freshness?
He suggest's it is wise to inquire about shipping,storing,from distributer's before you buy (good tip).
I should think that IF the product can indeed have shelf life of a few week's month's, then perhap's it is worth a try for some . That is about all the endorsement I can muster.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:51 AM   #18
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Salutations:
I donít get the point hear??
We are talking about a natural biological process that happens. Just like my septic tank I did not need anything to jump start the process in the septic nor do I need anything to jump start my aquarium.

My used aquarium came with a bottle of powder bacteria I didnít use it.
What I did is set the tank up with water, bubbles and used filter and ran the system with light for about 10 weeks. This phase I call ďtoo cheap to buy fish so enjoy the bubblesĒ, the next phase add livestock and enjoy the show.

A word about science itís not always the best answer to a problem. Remember the solution for about 500 yrs (14th century) the prevention of black plague was not to take baths in Europe. During this time (age of discovery, 16th century) empiricism was born and Galileo wrote the dialogs. The idea about being clean didnít come about until early 19th century.
The existence of bacteria has been known for less than 150 yrs.

There are two ways to know something you can know through empirical assessment (mathematical understanding of nature, science) or by epistemology. Using both empiricism & epistemology should provide satisfactory solution.

I am off topic. pop
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:15 AM   #19
 
Well Pop, when yer wrong yer wrong.

First of all, there's all sorts of bacteria in your #2 that goes into your septic system. A large part of digestion involves a host of bacteria in the intestines that break food down.

Second, In your aquarium, without organic waste to support the development and proliferation of beneficial bacteria, nothing happened for those 10 weeks...until you added the ammonia producing fish.

The point here is that we [sometimes] try to start a nitrogen cycle before adding fish so as not to harm them with ammonia or nitrite spikes. By using a bio-seed like filter material or substrate from an established tank OR a bottled bacteria product, the entire [cycling] process is accelerated. A process that might otherwise take 4-8 weeks can be reduced to a week or so with no stress and/or harm to fish.

All too many people start a new aquarium with fish not knowing about the nitrogen cycle of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates and within a few days, fish are dying and they're wondering why. I understand that nobody wants to wait several weeks to add fish to a new aquarium setup... So for a couple of extra bucks, use a bottled bacteria product just like commercial aquariums and professional installers use to ensure success.
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:55 AM   #20
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Hello abbysdad
I think you missed my point. Itís not the type of bacteria but that itís a natural process that happens without any intervention on my part. I think itís the pragmatic view you preach ( empirical tendencies to break everything down to its smallest fraction and then apply mathematical methodology to each of the parts) that I have difficulties with. What you say is not the experience I have hadÖ. I donít cycle aquariums, test for nitrogen process, I do check ph, water hardness and temp and change water frequently. Before I offend the pragmatic views let me say:

If the solution for unwelcome water parameters is to change the water and one changes water as suggested weekly why check water parameters. Just change the water its logic
If A then B therefore C

I am not disagreeing with the nitrogen cycle its just not useful for me.

I donít see my aquarium as a bunch of pragmatic processes that I should manipulate but as a state of nature moving toward harmony and balance. For me the whole is greater than the sum of pragmatic processes involved.

This is my experience and I think one can have a different experience. Itís wise to listen to what you moderators suggest and I do listen.
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