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This is a discussion on Play Sand within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Originally Posted by pop Hey beaslbob; Sorry I don’t know about your layering concept I was thinking about the article soil as substrate that ...

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Old 11-21-2012, 03:16 PM   #11
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pop View Post
Hey beaslbob;
Sorry I don’t know about your layering concept I was thinking about the article soil as substrate that used the concepts of diana walstad. Maybe we are thinking the same thing.
Why don’t you link me to your layering concepts. As for the deep sand bed that is exactly what I had in mind minus the plants and slow moving water. The sand & clay I want to use comes from the sandhills in Carolina. Thanks
pop
Oh silly me. all self centered on the layering stuff.


My previous post is the layering I use (for freshwater tanks).

One check of the sand is to take a small mount (spoonful) and see if it dissolves in vinegar. If it does it is calcium carbonate based.

3-4" or more are required from what I hear for DSB operation.

I don't use that and much prefer to use macro algae which I feel is not only much more effective but greatly increases the stability of the system as well.

I started posting on the internet in 2003 and everything was dsb. Then a few year later there were reports of tank crashes ofter 4-5 years of operation. At which time I noticed the increasing emphasis on macro algaes (in a refugium) which had been my thoughts all along.

In marine systems some have setup sea grass refugiums using deep sand beds with soils as well as sand. Turtle grass is one example. They seem to work well but the sea grasses are very slow growing and enviromentally protected.

just some rambling thoughts.

Worth at most .02
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:51 PM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by pop View Post
I guess I mis-understood. I thought you could put down a layer of potting soil then a layer of clay and last a layer of sand making a safe and healthy environment for the bacteria. I guess substrates do shift.
This is a different thing from your original post which questioned the sand depth, and that was what I responded to.

When you are layering with various substances, you are creating a somewhat different biological system, initially anyway. Down the road all of these tend to become the same as if you started with plain gravel or sand. And by down the road, I am thinking 1-2 years, depending upon the setup. Walstad even admits that in a sand-only substrate, the biology will have reached that of the soil substrate in a year or so.

Redchigh can confirm as he has tried this; but with layered substrates you must be very careful not to disrupt them. Once they start mixing it can cause significant biological issues.

Byron.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:28 AM   #13
 
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This is a different thing from your original post which questioned the sand depth, and that was what I responded to.

When you are layering with various substances, you are creating a somewhat different biological system, initially anyway. Down the road all of these tend to become the same as if you started with plain gravel or sand. And by down the road, I am thinking 1-2 years, depending upon the setup. Walstad even admits that in a sand-only substrate, the biology will have reached that of the soil substrate in a year or so.

Redchigh can confirm as he has tried this; but with layered substrates you must be very careful not to disrupt them. Once they start mixing it can cause significant biological issues.

Byron.
my experience disagrees with this. With plain sand I got a kh and gh rise to very high levels after a couple of years. With peat moss in the substrate kh and gh remmiand constant at 4 and 9 degrees respectfully.

I believe I saw a post/article where Dianne stated that the substrate when using co2 was delpleted in 2 years but lasted for 5 or more with no co2 being added. Due to the more rapid plant growth rates.

my .02
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:02 PM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
my experience disagrees with this. With plain sand I got a kh and gh rise to very high levels after a couple of years. With peat moss in the substrate kh and gh remmiand constant at 4 and 9 degrees respectfully.

I believe I saw a post/article where Dianne stated that the substrate when using co2 was delpleted in 2 years but lasted for 5 or more with no co2 being added. Due to the more rapid plant growth rates.

my .02
I would respectfully suggest there is more behind these numbers. The GH and KH in an aquarium will remain basically the same as the source water (assuming weekly partial water changes) unless it is acted upon by some substance. It is not going to rise unless there is a calcareous substance in the aquarium (or the tap water values rise). However, it may lower naturally, depending upon the KH.

As for peat retaining a low GH and KH and pH, this will only last until the peat gives out. This time period depends upon the amount of peat, the type of peat, and the initial GH and KH of the source water and again water changes. Organics in the soil can also impact this, obviously.


Walstad specifically advises against adding peat to the substrate. The acidic pH "would inhibit decomposition, thereby slowing CO2 release considerably."

Byron.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:08 AM   #15
 
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I would respectfully suggest there is more behind these numbers. The GH and KH in an aquarium will remain basically the same as the source water (assuming weekly partial water changes) unless it is acted upon by some substance.

...



Byron.
Am I allowed to respectfully disagree with you.

Have you considered and care to comment on this equation:


just before water change value=value in replacement water+(changes between water changes)/(fraction of water change)

Which assumes that things are constant with a constant change. And that sufficient water changes have been done so that the before water change values are the same.

KH is very much tied to the conditions in the tank as well as whatever is in the replacment water. Through interacting with calcium, the forward aerobic bacteria nitrogen cycle, plant action.


So the use of water changes will limit but not prevent deviations from whatever is in the replacement water. In my experience peat moss prevents the build up of both gh and kh. Which resulted in a kh of 4 degrees and a gh of 9 degrees for 2-3 years (before the tank tear down). But after a few years in a plain sand trank gh was over 35 degrees and KH over20.

My point as always is that the tank conditions themselves have a more important effect on tank conditions then partial water changes. That is unless you do something like 100%/day water changes. Which I consider more an open system then closed.

Still just my .02

ps hope that's too too confusing to OP.
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:57 AM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
Am I allowed to respectfully disagree with you.

Have you considered and care to comment on this equation:


just before water change value=value in replacement water+(changes between water changes)/(fraction of water change)

Which assumes that things are constant with a constant change. And that sufficient water changes have been done so that the before water change values are the same.

KH is very much tied to the conditions in the tank as well as whatever is in the replacment water. Through interacting with calcium, the forward aerobic bacteria nitrogen cycle, plant action.


So the use of water changes will limit but not prevent deviations from whatever is in the replacement water. In my experience peat moss prevents the build up of both gh and kh. Which resulted in a kh of 4 degrees and a gh of 9 degrees for 2-3 years (before the tank tear down). But after a few years in a plain sand trank gh was over 35 degrees and KH over20.

My point as always is that the tank conditions themselves have a more important effect on tank conditions then partial water changes. That is unless you do something like 100%/day water changes. Which I consider more an open system then closed.

Still just my .02

ps hope that's too too confusing to OP.
Nothing guarantees more water stability like regular partial water changes. As Dr. Neale Monks wrote in the November PFK, changing 90% of the tank water every day would be ideal, but most of us find once a week changes to be practical and better than nothing. But the more changes, the more stability, unless again something is being specifically targeted.

As I said previously, the GH and KH is not going to rise in an aquarium unless something is being added to cause this. In reverse, GH will lower along with pH depending upon the initial values, or if being spoecifically targeted.

Byron.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:31 PM   #17
 
I guess we agree to disagree.

Care to comment on the equation?

my .02
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:40 PM   #18
 
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Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
I guess we agree to disagree.

Care to comment on the equation?

my .02
I thought I had, previously in my several posts. Perhaps I am not understanding something?

And on what exactly are we disagreeing?
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:52 PM   #19
 
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Layering substrates increase anaerobic bacteria activity, which can add to the risk. Right now for planted tanks I'm having good luck with gradual changes (instead of Pronounced layers )
Something like:

Top layer: Sand
Next layer: 2/3 sand, 1/3 soil
Bottom layer: 2/3 soil, 1/3 sand

I agree, the substrate should be 3-3.5 inches at its deepest point.
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