For the Non-water changers in the crowd. - Page 8 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #71 of 104 Old 01-27-2013, 06:40 PM
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my answer to your first question


1 - if you define successful as: 'the fish live, reproduce, and seem to be doing great', the answer is just about any size aquarium
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post #72 of 104 Old 01-28-2013, 12:53 AM
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I venture it would be extremely difficult to raise the dissolved oxygen [DO2] in an aquarium, using typical reasonably used equipment to a high enough rate to negatively effect nutrient uptake by plants. If this is indeed the case then I'd certainly like to see the literature substantiating this. I would also like to know what this rate would be.

In nature, there are situations where water can become supersaturated with DO2. This can be caused by plants, algae and waterfalls. Some may be surprised to know that DO2 can be 12 PPM and more in a natural setting with plants in coldish water.

I still have not heard what DO2 is considered a good range for aquariums. Mine is around 7.5 PPM. At less than 6 PPM some aerobic bacteria do not function.

I don't know the relation to aquarium plants but hydroponic farmers increase DO2 to submerged roots to increase nutrient uptake.
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post #73 of 104 Old 01-28-2013, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Timjwilson View Post
I venture it would be extremely difficult to raise the dissolved oxygen [DO2] in an aquarium, using typical reasonably used equipment to a high enough rate to negatively effect nutrient uptake by plants. If this is indeed the case then I'd certainly like to see the literature substantiating this. I would also like to know what this rate would be.

In nature, there are situations where water can become supersaturated with DO2. This can be caused by plants, algae and waterfalls. Some may be surprised to know that DO2 can be 12 PPM and more in a natural setting with plants in coldish water.

I still have not heard what DO2 is considered a good range for aquariums. Mine is around 7.5 PPM. At less than 6 PPM some aerobic bacteria do not function.

I don't know the relation to aquarium plants but hydroponic farmers increase DO2 to submerged roots to increase nutrient uptake.
I've no idea what the level of DO2 [= dissolved oxygen] should be, nor do I know at what levels it may cause issues. I frankly do not see the relevance of worrying over this. The important point is that you are not going to have any oxygen shortage in any aquarium unless something is wrong, meaning too many fish, too much decaying matter, adding diffused CO2 during darkness, etc. If the fish stocking is suited to the aquarium, and there are live plants, the oxygen will be sufficient for the needs of fish and plants.

My earlier point was that CO2 will be minimal with live plants, all else again being equal, and you do not want to be doing something that decreases it even further before the plants can take it up.

Byron.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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post #74 of 104 Old 01-28-2013, 02:00 PM
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I've no idea what the level of DO2 [= dissolved oxygen] should be, nor do I know at what levels it may cause issues.
I'll try researching this a little if I have some time. I do know that in my area (which is multiplying microorganisms used in agriculture) that a small shift in DO2 can have a profound effect on the microbial population. I use oxygen supersaturation to manipulate the environment to benefit aerobic bacteria & fungi but as I stated I doubt that properly used aquarium equipment could have this effect to the degree that nutrient uptake by plants would be impacted.


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The important point is that you are not going to have any oxygen shortage in any aquarium unless something is wrong

Agreed, along with many other parameters which are measurable but not popular and affordable with the aquarium crowd. I've heard one 'scientist' argue that discus require a measured bacterial population of >100 cells/ml (cannot remember the exact number) in the water. I'm not implying this is necessary...just for illustration.


Quote:
My earlier point was that CO2 will be minimal with live plants, all else again being equal, and you do not want to be doing something that decreases it even further before the plants can take it up

I'm guessing that this is a non-issue if one has adequate fish (& invertebrates) and a good microbial population. I'm going to need a CO2 tester of some sort to verify. I also guess a lot is light quality dependent.
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post #75 of 104 Old 01-28-2013, 02:46 PM
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From what I can quickly ascertain one wants a dissolved oxygen rate of 7 PPM or greater (to a point; eg 9 or 10?) for fish to thrive and over 5 PPM for them to survive (appearing happy but who knows what is behind that happy smile )

Although this does not address aquarium fish here is some cursory reading material for those who may be interested. I have yet to research the water plant nutrient uptake issue.

http://www.krisweb.com/stream/do.htm
http://www.water-research.net/Watershed/dissolvedoxygen.htm
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wat/wq/BCguidelines/tgp/tgptextonly-02.htm
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00288330.1999.9516860
http://water.epa.gov/scitech/swguidance/standards/criteria/aqlife/upload/2009_01_13_criteria_goldbook.pdf
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post #76 of 104 Old 01-28-2013, 04:36 PM
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i may have to do a small scale experiment with my next batch of mollies

i will use 2 15-L tanks identical and with identical filter system

i will also put both of these tanks in my 2,5 ft tank so they get the same light and environment

i will also weigh the gravel

the only problem i have is these tanks i hope to get have no thermostat with them i will just have to make space on my floor my room is warm and they will both be the same temp so as far as comparison goes this should be fine

i have no fancy fish equipment for testing GH KH TDS TSS and much more but the proof is in the pudding after 6 months the fry that have grown the most will win lol

the only small snag i can see is feeding if i feed one tank more they will grow faster to some extent so i am thinking that instead of constant messing round trying to weight food i will just feed a few time over 5 mins but bits at a time this way it will give some kind of an indication on what the difference is in there appetite's

These will also be planted tanks and i will use the exact same plants in each i will pick 2 plants that are different and split to equal sizes a week before starting

the plants can also help us tell the size of the difference between changed and none changed

oh also i will do the changes on the changed water system daily to mimic a year or so if it was a 150L+

CAN ANYONE ELSE THINK OF WAYS TO MAKE SURE THIS IS AS SCIENTIFIC AS CAN BE



i would love to do this with 2 150L tanks but you know when i win the lotto and all lol :P

but i guess that in most way the 15L's will give an idea on the effect over years in something like a 150L
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post #77 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 09:27 AM
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the water changers always go to the science of it but how can this be meritable when we do not even know half of the properties fish could need.

also the effect of weekly stress caused by water changes on our fish

yes some say that they are less stressed after reciving fresh water ho do you know your fish are less stressed after this i would love to know i mean come on did it speak to you ?

i really do think that the water changers sooner or later need to except that it can be done another way with the same sucsess levels

Last edited by Olympia; 01-31-2013 at 03:41 PM. Reason: quotes from other removed posts
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post #78 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 09:31 AM
Water changes can be done with little to no stress i believe. My fish don't even know i'm doing a water change, I empty my 45g sump,under the tank, and refill that, and bam, no fuss no muss.
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post #79 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Reefing Madness View Post
Water changes can be done with little to no stress i believe. My fish don't even know i'm doing a water change, I empty my 45g sump,under the tank, and refill that, and bam, no fuss no muss.
Nice.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
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post #80 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 09:42 AM
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Water changes can be done with little to no stress i believe. My fish don't even know i'm doing a water change, I empty my 45g sump,under the tank, and refill that, and bam, no fuss no muss.
i agree totally but most in fresh water game do not have a sump like me im just designing my new sump now
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