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For the Non-water changers in the crowd.

This is a discussion on For the Non-water changers in the crowd. within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Originally Posted by Olympia But, don't you think beaslebob would not have successfully kept generation upon generation of fish if he wasn't following what ...

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For the Non-water changers in the crowd.
Old 01-25-2013, 07:44 PM   #31
 
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But, don't you think beaslebob would not have successfully kept generation upon generation of fish if he wasn't following what you take to be necessary? He is taking "bad care" of it, according to you, but his fish seem very long lived and none the worse for wear.
So he says his fish lived "Long". Fish can cope. They can sometimes become used to really bad conditions such as what has been discussed when you look into "Old tank syndrome".

It's amazing what some animals are able to put up with. Such as poor crocodiles forced to live in tiny concrete boxes their entire lives (and end up with terrible tempers because of it), or upwards of 20 + poor bichirs stuck into a tank and expected to use each other for hide spacing because they were unlucky enough to fall into the hands of a "Collector".

Fish put up with a lot of abuse before they succumb, some more than others. So they live long, or so he claims. That doesn't debunk a wealth of knowledge and research and world wide experience on the benefits of water changes.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:55 PM   #32
 
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As far as we can tell his fish are fine though. As well as the other's who don't do much water changing. They look healthy, I saw pictures and they look just like any other fish. You say healthy fish live longer, but then when it comes up that his fish are living longer you say they are merely coping. Well, if they are living longer isn't that all that matters, according to you? I'm sure he will clear this up a little more when he returns.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:08 PM   #33
 
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As far as we can tell his fish are fine though. As well as the other's who don't do much water changing. They look healthy, I saw pictures and they look just like any other fish. You say healthy fish live longer, but then when it comes up that his fish are living longer you say they are merely coping. Well, if they are living longer isn't that all that matters, according to you? I'm sure he will clear this up a little more when he returns.
To put it one way, I could take my 10 gallon low tech betta tank. I could stop doing water changes as of today. Top it off when necessary and my Betta may appear to live in health for 2-3 years. Considering that seems to be the average set not by their potential live span but instead by the fact most people who keep bettas don't take care of them properly...considering that one could say that the entire situation was okay and or successful.

Bettas live longer than 2-3 years(or have that potential). It is an unfortunate thing that seeing them live that longer is unusual in captivity due to the excess of bad keepers. If I had taken the time to water change at least once every two weeks that betta could have easily lived 2-3 times the live-span it did. (this is again talking in the realm of hypothetically).

There are other fish out that are very tough, well capable of coping with bad conditions...but would favor better ones if given the chance. Those fish can give such an illusion that an improper tank is problem free. Again I am not inclined to take everything I have learned and everything all the experts have learned and throw it away for some random group of people online claiming they had healthy fish with no water changes and no substantial research to back it up. It doesn't make logical sense as is. Aquariums are not open systems. They need water changes. Study the water cycle and apply it to fish, and tie in with fish keeping. The logic there is none in what the water changeless crowd is saying.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:28 PM   #34
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... I am not inclined to take everything I have learned and everything all the experts have learned and throw it away for some random group of people online claiming they had healthy fish with no water changes an no substantial research to back it up....
Well, this thread certainly didn't go anywhere near where I thought it might.... at least I remembered that I started it and what I asked initially. I have a rather over developed curiosity and I do enjoy the debate. It reminds me of my old kid's babysitter and an argument that we had once over child seats and bolts. I insisted that if she were to take my daughter with her in her car that she had to have a restraining bolt to tether the seat to.

She insisted that she has never had an accident and is a safe driver and it was good enough for her kids. It was one of those times that debate was totally useless as her record was proof to her that her method works perfectly. I just insisted and steam rolled the situation as every precaution was worth a small hassle or expense to keep my kids safe... she didn't end up ever take my daughter anywhere which was fine by me.

I don't think that anyone is really trying to get everyone to stop changing water... although BBob is a little insistent at times... and nobody is going to have someone else's fish in their tank, keeping them in a manner that they would not approve.

Jeff.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:45 PM   #35
 
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Well, this thread certainly didn't go anywhere near where I thought it might.... at least I remembered that I started it and what I asked initially. I have a rather over developed curiosity and I do enjoy the debate. It reminds me of my old kid's babysitter and an argument that we had once over child seats and bolts. I insisted that if she were to take my daughter with her in her car that she had to have a restraining bolt to tether the seat to.

She insisted that she has never had an accident and is a safe driver and it was good enough for her kids. It was one of those times that debate was totally useless as her record was proof to her that her method works perfectly. I just insisted and steam rolled the situation as every precaution was worth a small hassle or expense to keep my kids safe... she didn't end up ever take my daughter anywhere which was fine by me.

I don't think that anyone is really trying to get everyone to stop changing water... although BBob is a little insistent at times... and nobody is going to have someone else's fish in their tank, keeping them in a manner that they would not approve.

Jeff.
It is completely within my understanding that there is no attempt to force any of us to change into the habit of not doing water changes. However there are questionable methods being brought up and they need to be questioned every time.

This forum and others like it exist as a source of advice and information for all fish keepers. New people who are brand new to the hobby come to these places all the time. To me it is necessary to see this kind of debate when these kinds of ideas come up. This ensures that all people watching are aware of both sides. Then it's up to them to make their own choices.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:16 AM   #36
 
The things I do not understand with the frequent water changes is that most people live in a municipality which treats the water with harsh chemicals so other chemicals are used to supposedly remove these chemicals. How can one even remotely argue this is good for fish? On top of this most or many adjust the temperature of their water to be used with water from a hot water tank, where chemicals, toxins and minerals are even more concentrated.

I also find it amusing that the number one most important measurement one can make for fish is for dissolved oxygen, yet hardly anyone mentions this and likely most do not have a meter. How do you tell that your fish are in an oxygen sufficient environment? By their happy behavior, or are they just coping with the environment you are subjecting them to?

BTW, presently I am doing 8% avg daily water changes and checking all parameters [including O2], as I have a young tank with young discus but I am working towards very minimal water changes, once I acheive a measurable balance. My municipality uses no chemicals and I heat the water in a tub.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:42 AM   #37
 
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The things I do not understand with the frequent water changes is that most people live in a municipality which treats the water with harsh chemicals so other chemicals are used to supposedly remove these chemicals. How can one even remotely argue this is good for fish? On top of this most or many adjust the temperature of their water to be used with water from a hot water tank, where chemicals, toxins and minerals are even more concentrated.

I also find it amusing that the number one most important measurement one can make for fish is for dissolved oxygen, yet hardly anyone mentions this and likely most do not have a meter. How do you tell that your fish are in an oxygen sufficient environment? By their happy behavior, or are they just coping with the environment you are subjecting them to?

BTW, presently I am doing 8% avg daily water changes and checking all parameters [including O2], as I have a young tank with young discus but I am working towards very minimal water changes, once I acheive a measurable balance. My municipality uses no chemicals and I heat the water in a tub.
One of the things you are supposed to do is look up the water quality report of your area. You can see what kinds of things are coming through your tap and prepare for that. Really those "harsh chemicals" are not something that is going to be present much in your water. You drink it after all right?

However some people do have major issues with their local water and end up using RO water. There are some people who go so far as to buy equipment to make their own RO.

Personally I have loaches in one of my tanks and while they are not as sensitive as Discus they are still very sensitive fish. I premix new water and temp match it before putting it in and they thrive in the conditions they are in. However when I skip a water change or go too long (and have in the past) they become reclusive, refuse to come out and eat and well...you can tell that they are stressed. It's very clear in their situation they benefit from the water changes. They live in a heavily planted tank too.

As for Oxygen, if you have a planted tank you don't really have to worry too much about oxygen. In fact if you have a water fall type filter (like an HOB) and it creates a splash that will oxygenate your tank. That said there is a big reason why people who have non-planted tanks run those bubble walls. It is to take care of the issue with oxygen. Lack of oxygen very quickly kills fish in a tank environment. It's not something to my knowledge that they cope as well with unless they are by nature air breathers.
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:30 AM   #38
 
Well, that was a long read to see that people will never agree on anything.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:24 AM   #39
 
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Well, that was a long read to see that people will never agree on anything.
true that.

Only thing i want to know........is there scientific backing for BOTH sides? Or just DOING pwcs?
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Old 01-26-2013, 06:41 AM   #40
 
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This is the crux of the whole thing, the average aquarium is probably better than 95% of aquariums out there which makes the need for partial water change the norm. Any of us who are actually doing no changes or are even looking at the idea, however remote the actual implementation of the idea is (I probably won't try it), are going to be in the 5% or less of fish keepers.

I'm one of the curious ones and like to see and learn what others are doing that is not the norm. Whether I condone, agree, or disagree with it has no bearing on my level of curiosity.

Jeff.
i disagree there are many plus's and minuses to both way's but a reasonably large tank can be run very sucessfully with no changes the bigger the tank the more chance you have you can only do this with planted tanks and with a wide veriaity of plants some plants do diffrent jobs

any switched on enthusiast will know that water changes are better but here is the thing

it can be done
it can be done to have not just healthy fish and plants but fish and plants that thrive

JDM

titled this topic for none water changers because he has heard and understands what is the PRO'S and CON'S are

i think he is after tip's for doing it this way so like me with some of my friends that just wont do them unless i go and do it myself so i dont i just recreate an enviroment where they and not need it, of corse they would be benificial to some extent but not needed which is what he asked for

other wise he would of put the title as can i run a tank without changes

but anyhow

the smallest tank i have run like this is a 100 litre i would not do this again with anything smaller than 150litre as the 100 kept fish healthy and never had a problem but you could just and i do mean just tell the difference in the fish i had to look for minute signs of stress the avrg aquaticst would never notice

i now only run my 350 litre like this well i change abouts 20 litre every month so its as good as none and wont stress the fish

but what i was a kid my dad had a huge 800-1000 litre tanks which had no changes for 10 years + never had problems with ammonia nitrite nitrate ph kh or gh the emviroment was stable something far too many can not recreate

any other questions JDM just ask

the only thing i will say is if you or anyone else runs a tank this way do no use ammonit nitrite or nitrate up or down if you do need to just change water the enviroment is not stable enough
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