For the Non-water changers in the crowd. - Page 10 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #91 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 01:25 PM
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Lets make this simple. Can anyone find an ichthyologist, biochemist, or published writer that says water changes aren't crucial (in something 20 years old or less).

(Other than Diane Walstad).:P


This is degrading away from a civilized debate. Be nice, or it will be closed.


"As for X fish breeds for me, and I don't do waterchanges", its an invalid point. There is no way to know that the lack of water changes is the reason. It could easily b "in spite of no water changes, x breeds".
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post #92 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 01:48 PM
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yes some say that they are less stressed after reciving fresh water ho do you know your fish are less stressed after this i would love to know i mean come on did it speak to you ?

Just to put this out there, all of my Harlequin Rasboras immediately start spawning after a water change. It's like clockwork.
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post #93 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 02:11 PM
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Just to put this out there, all of my Harlequin Rasboras immediately start spawning after a water change. It's like clockwork.
yes if anyone was to keep a breeding tank with no changes this is a different matter

i will run a tank with no changes but not breed there is 2 major reasons to this one being that fry/eggs are not as acclimed to the water as the rest of fish

two is that hormones that are released during breeding are not good for fish there is no fact to this just logic and the fact it is the way i was taught

also yet again i find myself saying this

them like your self that change water

your water goes like a yoyo good water then it goes back to the equilibrium state in a matter of a day or two then a few days after they get used to the water's equilibrium state a few days later you change water again

i ask how can a fish know where it stands from day to day

compered to a fish that lives at a healthy equilibrium and you all argue water changes are not stressful of corse they are

let me restrict your air supply to 50% of what you are used to and see how much it stresses you every few days with such a change

is it that far out of reasoning that the fish will breed just bellow the equilibrium no truth of it is they would anyway usualy 24 hours after tank gets cleaned and plants eat all bad chemicals

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post #94 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 02:18 PM Thread Starter
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yes some say that they are less stressed after reciving fresh water ho do you know your fish are less stressed after this i would love to know i mean come on did it speak to you ?
Jen reminded me that you asked this question.

Check out this video and you tell me that this fish (our Oscar the betta) is more stressed or less stressed as the fresh water pours into the tank. Can a person even speak of a lack of stress anymore eloquently than this? I think not


'Nuff said.

Jeff.
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Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc

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post #95 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 03:03 PM
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People need to go back and reread from the beginning. The same points keep getting brought up.

In a tank with no waterchanges, a sudden waterchange can shock the fish. Absolutely.

In a tank with regular waterchanges, the tank water will be more similiar to tap, so there will be no "shock".

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post #96 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
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People need to go back and reread from the beginning. The same points keep getting brought up.

In a tank with no waterchanges, a sudden waterchange can shock the fish. Absolutely.

In a tank with regular waterchanges, the tank water will be more similiar to tap, so there will be no "shock".
The worst of this, as much as the discussion is interesting even with the tangents, I wasn't asking about opinions, scientific proof or anything... just some input from those that actually are running or have run closed tanks, mainly for curiosity sake.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
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post #97 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 03:47 PM
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The worst of this, as much as the discussion is interesting even with the tangents, I wasn't asking about opinions, scientific proof or anything... just some input from those that actually are running or have run closed tanks, mainly for curiosity sake.

Jeff.
So essentially all of you that are arguing to the "importance" of water changes should stay out of this thread as that's not what the OP wanted.

To go back on topic, I don't know about the smallest, but I've successfully run a 90g tank using soil topped with black sand, a variety of plants including many fast-growers, and lightly stocked with small community fish.
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post #98 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 04:04 PM
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I have a question, well, two.

What is the smallest tank that you think can successfully be set up to run with no water changes?
1 quart or less
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What is the smallest you have run that way, and for how long?
1 Quart 2-3 years
5 gallon 8-9 years
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I may have others along the way but let's start with these.

When I first looked at an aquarium, just before Christmas, I asked the LFS guy about running such a setup as you guys do. He gave me that look that you give, unintentionally, to the extremely uninformed. So I am curious.

Jeff.
how's that for back to original question?

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #99 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 07:49 PM
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you put your hand in your tank you stress every fish in most tanks one fish will spook another and then that will do the same until you get a fast fish that will make them all jump

imagine some one lowering the roof in your room and then 5 mins later lifts it up again ok you would get used to it but it can be to easy for it to disrupt your day
causing stress why would fish be any different sure they could and maybe
This is rather misleading.

First on the fish response, it is not always stress but quite the opposite. I remember changing water with Carnegiella marthae [hatchetfish] nibbling on the hairs on my arm as I was vacuming the substrate; they certainly weren't jumping out of fear. And today, the Black Ruby Barb were clustered around the siphon tube pecking at it in the hopes of grabbing some of the bits of detritus being vacumed up, while I was moving it along the substrate. And others were nibbling my hand. And they regularly swim into the tube when the tank is refilling.

But taking the stress issue, what about the stress of not doing the water change? Which do you think is going to have the longer lasting effect on the fish? A few minutes of annoyance during the water change, or the cumulative effect of all the "stuff" not being removed from the water? The latter is by far the worst.

Byron.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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post #100 of 104 Old 01-30-2013, 09:46 PM
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You know the cool thing about a properly designed heavily planted tank? No ammonia spikes when adding fish or accidentally overfeeding. The plants can take up nitrogen much quicker than bacteria. You'll probably think of some way how plants consuming nitrogen is bad for the fish though...
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