Nitrate filter - Page 3
Tropical Fish

Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources » Freshwater Fish and Aquariums » Beginner Freshwater Aquarium » Nitrate filter

Nitrate filter

This is a discussion on Nitrate filter within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Originally Posted by Aquaripure Using anaerobic bacteria to process wastewater containing both urine and solid waste has a tremendous amount of scientific research behind ...

Check out these freshwater fish profiles
Reticulated Cory
Reticulated Cory
Guppy
Guppy
Reply
Old 01-24-2010, 03:23 PM   #21
 
Byron's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaripure View Post
Using anaerobic bacteria to process wastewater containing both urine and solid waste has a tremendous amount of scientific research behind it going back decades. The only difference between an aquarium nitrate filter and large scale anaerobic digester is that digesters sometimes process more of the solid stuff. This is NOT true of all the anaerobic plants and many treat a wide range of pollutants as the bacteria actually break down a lot of different pollutants in addition to urine, solid waste, and nitrates.

For the Wikipedia entry on it see Anaerobic digestion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is an extensive United Nations paper on the subject Bioconversion of organic residues for rural communities

Other websites and scientific articles are:
ArchaeaSolutions Scientific Papers regarding Arkea
Trends in Biotechnology - Challenge of psychrophilic anaerobic wastewater treatment
May 2001: Anaerobic wastewater treatment reviewed
G1881 Generating Methane Gas From Manure | University of Missouri Extension
Turning manure into gold
Science Links Japan | The Application of Anaerobic Wastewater Treatment System in Paper Industry.

Aquaripure's explanation is here More on Nitrate Removal

These are just what searching for 1 minute on Google has turned up. No offense but obviously you didn't try at all to find any scientific research showing anaerobic bacteria can and do in fact remove urine among other things. Before you make statements such as, "I would welcome any scientific evidence that urine is somehow extracted from the water passing through this or any filter" perhaps you should spend 1 minute looking it up on Google. I do not want to inflame anyone but really, you made that statement with such authority and certainty that many people might believe it.

If you want more, spend a few hours at a university library and I am certain you will have hundreds if not thousands of actual scientific articles in respected scientific journals on the use of bacteria to process urine and solid waste.
I am not going to waste my time trying to prove your business. My statement was accurate and true, I am not aware of any such filter. When I have time I will read your links. It is odd that such a marvel, if it exists, would not be touted by those with considerably more knowledge and experience in the hobby than I have.
Byron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 03:30 PM   #22
 
Aquaripure's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron View Post
I am not going to waste my time trying to prove your business. My statement was accurate and true, I am not aware of any such filter. When I have time I will read your links. It is odd that such a marvel, if it exists, would not be touted by those with considerably more knowledge and experience in the hobby than I have.
You don't have to, here's one right here.

One other thing, there are a lot of things people could do in general which would be better but don't. Why don't we all drive more fuel efficient vehicles? Why don't we use more solar power? There will be tons of "experts" who claim it's not practical, etc, etc, etc but frankly I don't buy it. We could dramatically curb our carbon footprint using existing technology. It's really not in the best interest of "big oil" who makes billions upon billions of dollars on fossil fuels so things will have to wait until we absolutely have to change. So we buy the myth that we have to have vast supplies of cheap fossil fuels to exist. This is just like most people buy into the myth that frequent water changes are an absolute necessity.

There are a lot of people who make or sell products that the Aquaripure could compete with and then there are people who are just old fashioned and used to doing things differently. Both will come across as "experts" who wish to keep things the way they were.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg phototank74.jpg (8.3 KB, 27 views)

Last edited by Aquaripure; 01-24-2010 at 03:42 PM..
Aquaripure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 03:51 PM   #23
 
Byron's Avatar
 
Quote:
One other thing, there are a lot of things people could do in general which would be better but don't. Why don't we all drive more fuel efficient vehicles? Why don't we use more solar power? There will be tons of "experts" who claim it's not practical, etc, etc, etc but frankly I don't buy it. We could dramatically curb our carbon footprint using existing technology. It's really not in the best interest of "big oil" who makes billions upon billions of dollars on fossil fuels so things will have to wait until we absolutely have to change. So we buy the myth that we have to have vast supplies of cheap fossil fuels to exist.
I will certainly agree with you on this. Totally.

Quote:
There are a lot of people who make or sell products that the Aquaripure could compete with and then there are people who are just old fashioned and used to doing things differently. Both will come across as "experts" who wish to keep things the way they were.
The experts I listen to are those biologists, botanists, microbiologists and regular experienced fishkeepers in the hobby, not those who directly benefit from manufacturing the products. There are many reliable manufacturers connected to this hobby, like Seachem and API, but there are some of their products that I know are not necessary or can be detrimental to my fish and I will not recommend the product notwithstanding the normal trust I would give to that manufacturer.

When the health of our fish is at stake, I am going to continue to recommend those practices that are tried and true at keeping those fish alive and healthy. Right now, I'm off to do my weekly 50% pwc on my three tanks; after 20 years of doing this I know the positive health benefit this gives to my fish, and they are worth the time and effort.
Byron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 04:28 PM   #24
 
Aquaripure's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron View Post

When the health of our fish is at stake, I am going to continue to recommend those practices that are tried and true at keeping those fish alive and healthy. Right now, I'm off to do my weekly 50% pwc on my three tanks; after 20 years of doing this I know the positive health benefit this gives to my fish, and they are worth the time and effort.
Again, I certainly wish no ill will towards you in any way and I do not wish to come across as "trading jabs" but with 20 years of doing water changes I would certainly put you into the category of someone who most people would consider an "expert" simply by the length of time you have been in the hobby. At the same time you have a resistance to this new idea. This is perfectly natural and understandable and I don't see anything wrong with you sticking to the staus quo. In science this is called a "paradigm shift." However, I would try to persuade you to at least be open to the idea that there are other methods and products that might do a better job and be a better fit for others. I have also spoken to many scientists with fish tanks and some have purchased my filter and some have even sent testimonials.
Aquaripure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 06:47 PM   #25
 
iamntbatman's Avatar
 
As far as I know, fish (not including sharks) don't urinate. They excrete ammonia directly into the water through their gills.
iamntbatman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 08:35 PM   #26
 
Byron's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamntbatman View Post
As far as I know, fish (not including sharks) don't urinate. They excrete ammonia directly into the water through their gills.
A tetra can release its body weight in urine every few days. This was in an article in either TFH or AFI this past year, sorry I can't recollect which. Not to mention related articles from a number of biologists and experienced fishkeepers. Water is constantly passing into the body of a fish by osmosis across the cell membranes. The kidneys flush toxins out of the bloodstream as they do in all animals, and all this has to go somewhere. Then there is the matter of salinity that affects freshwater fish differently from marine.

I'm quite prepared to accept that all these scientists and authors can be wrong, but given they are the majority I accept what they tell me; I'm not a trained biologist.

Last edited by Byron; 01-24-2010 at 08:53 PM..
Byron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 10:39 PM   #27
 
iamntbatman's Avatar
 
Upon further reading (it's been a while since I've learned about this sort of stuff) it appears we're both correct. Fish do excrete large volumes of urine, but unlike terrestrial animals this is dilute urine that is free of nitrogenous waste in freshwater fish. Nitrogenous waste is excreted almost exclusively as ammonium through the gills; freshwater fish "urine" is largely an osmoregulatory process that rids the fish of excess fluids, as there is a higher concentration of diluted material inside the fish than outside it. So yes, a tetra might pee an awful lot but this pee is essentially just water.

Sources:
New Page 1
Osmoregulation in Fish

What toxins are you suggesting are present in fish urine that need to be removed, then? To my knowledge, water changes provide two basic functions: removal of nitrate (the end product of ammonia excreted through the gills and a large part of solid waste after it has been broken down by bacteria) and the addition of trace elements essential to healthy fish growth.
iamntbatman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2010, 04:47 PM   #28
 
Byron's Avatar
 
Good articles, thanks for the links. I read both, but also saved them for later reference when this topic may come up.

I'll answer your first question by citing from David Boruchowitz in his 2-part article "Time for a Change: A Mathematical Investigation of Water Changes" in the November and December 2009 TFH.
Most aquarium maintenance is a matter of crud and how to get rid of it. A mechanical filter traps suspended crud, a chemical filter removes certain dissolved crud, and a biofilter changes very toxic dissolved crud into much less toxic crud. But no matter how much filtration you have on your aquarium, dissolved crud in some form continues to accumulate.

We don't even know everything that accumulates, but we do know that keeping the amount of dissovled crud to a minimum really makes a difference in tghe growth, health, and apparent happiness of our pet fish. The simplest, easiest and most effective way of removing the accumulated pollution in an aquarium is to do just that--physically remove it by taking out the water and replacing it with fresh, clean water.
The "crud" I understand to be (now dilute) urine, dissolved solid waste, and those "unknown" substances referred to above. I'll use "crud" from now on for clarity.

To the second point, the water change is the only method of removing the crud, plus it does dilute nitrates (important in non-planted tanks) and may supply trace elements depending upon what is in the water; my tap water is absolutley zero DH and KH with no trace minerals according to the water board tests, so it is not supplying anything. I have no nitrates to dilute, they constantly measure 5ppm and many planted tank aquarists (like Kym) have zero nitrates. Yet, there is absolutely no mistaking the vastly higher level of activity in the fish caused by a pwc. So the only obvious benefit has to be the exchange of water that removes some or most (depending upon the volume) of the crud.

Byron.
Byron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nitrate? MXS Freshwater and Tropical Fish 8 08-27-2009 05:06 PM
DIY Nitrate Filter Idea fishkid DIY Aquarium 6 02-18-2009 11:28 AM
Home Made Nitrate Filter? chrismrutherford DIY Aquarium 16 10-08-2008 08:18 PM
low nitrate black&whiteclowns Water Chemistry 1 04-28-2007 07:13 PM
undergravel filter causing high nitrate levels? crzystng Tropical Fish Diseases 1 02-02-2007 03:19 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:25 PM.