New tank items in old tank for a month to seed? - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #1 of 23 Old 01-27-2017, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
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New tank items in old tank for a month to seed?

Hi All!

I currently have a 40g freshwater tank containing four Angelfish juveniles/young adults--two veiled Koi and two veiled true Albinos. I use only a 6"x6" sponge filter in the existing tank (no carbon or hang off the back filters.) ETA: I have only those four Angelfish, no other fish or aquatic animals.

The Koi are displaying pairing behavior and I'm starting a 20g tank for them alone.

I'm considering placing the new sponge filter and driftwood in the existing tank for 30 days to develop the bacterial cultures required in the new tank.

Would that process be sufficient to support the Koi when they move to their new tank? Or should I cycle the new tank anyway?

All advice is welcome and greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!


Last edited by AngelfishLover; 01-27-2017 at 08:51 AM.
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post #2 of 23 Old 01-29-2017, 06:00 PM
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I would think that this would be fine. Depending on the bio load in the "new" tank being relatively low. You could also use alittle gravel from your established tank.
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post #3 of 23 Old 01-30-2017, 06:15 AM Thread Starter
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That's the technique I attempted the first time using a cultured sponge filter from the breeder but the vast difference in our pH levels (his 8.5, mine an unknown 4.5 due to bad test solution) killed all the bacteria and left me with with unrecognized new tank syndrome. I cycled the tank using $179 worth of fish. Hence I'm a tiny bit leery of moving them at all and want the Koi to make the move with no problems.

Logically it makes sense that it would work but. . ...
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post #4 of 23 Old 01-30-2017, 06:56 AM
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Missed that ph issue.
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post #5 of 23 Old 01-30-2017, 09:23 AM
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Forgot to say - those are some of the nicest angels I've ever seen, so i wouldn't feel bad about paying top dollar for them.

125 - BGK, chanchito cichlid, pictus cats, silver dollars, palmas bichir
125 - cichlids (severums, bolivian rams, chocolate), rainbows ( turquoise, red), loaches (angelicus, zebra, kuhli and horseface), plecos (BN, RL and clown), denison barbs, tiretrack eel, pearl gouramis, betta
90 - Congo tetras, african knife, upside down cats, spotted ctenopoma, kribensis, delhezzi bichir
2.5 - betta
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post #6 of 23 Old 01-31-2017, 04:53 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Missed that ph issue.
Trust me on this: pH matters a lot! I lost a black lace and a half black to pH. I religiously use Seachem Neutral Regulator now.

The poor breeder had to have been sick of me. I keep a log of all my testing values, changes in the tank, etc. and as the unrecognized new tank syndrome progressed he was as flummoxed as I. As a last resort I took samples of my tap and tank water to the local aquarium shop and discovered the real problem. I could NOT believe it. But the breeder did everything he could from 1,000 miles away to help me.

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Originally Posted by jaysee View Post
Forgot to say - those are some of the nicest angels I've ever seen, so i wouldn't feel bad about paying top dollar for them.
Thanks jaysee! I decided to give each fish 10 gallons since I intend to grow them into adults and they'll need the space once full grown. The albinos will have 20 gallons each when the Koi are moved. I might get two more albinos as long as hubs doesn't threaten divorce.

After researching Angels I have a critical eye for form and was astonished at what passes for Angelfish locally. I showed the owner of the local aquarium store photos of my fish. They only purchase locally bred Angelfish. I think that's why he offered to purchase any if they breed.

I wanted to do a planted 40 gallon tank but I think the full spectrum bulb I have now is causing the Albinos some problems. I posted a question about albinism and fish in another section of the forum but haven't received a response. The breeder said he hasn't had that variety very long and isn't sure whether and/or how albinism affects fish in a planted, high-spectrum tank (long or short term.) I might lower the bulb and see how the albinos' behavior changes, if at all.

Now the new Koi tank can be planted and I intend to do that. Getting ready for more grumbling. . ...

Thanks again!

PS--it's hard to see in a photo but the topmost albino in the second photo is a full pearlscale. (S)he is simply gorgeous! The other albino has a few pearled scales but not many. If those two breed, approximately 3/4ths of the fry will be full pearlscale veiled albinos. That might be interesting!

Last edited by AngelfishLover; 01-31-2017 at 05:01 AM.
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post #7 of 23 Old 01-31-2017, 03:58 PM
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PH is a big deal but not for the reason most of us think. Fish from the wild(most of use don't get these fish) can be stressed and could die from changing the PH. But most fish we buy are tank raised and will handle different PH no problem. Having said that you have to keep the PH stable because if it changes it could cause the fish to die.

My guess is what happened is the fish got shocked from the change. Don't feel too bad most people never think about the PH of the breeder online so never ask about it. They get their fish float the bag for 30 mins and move the fish. This works fine if the fish are local but to adjust from 8.5 to 4.5 would have taken weeks of slowly adding local water.


They are great looking fish.

Sorry for the quick reply running out of time tonight. Will be back in the morning.


You can follow Old Fort Exotics on You Tube and on my Fish room thread.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5l...KdIa-pb3K2zb7A
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/d...h-room-517930/

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post #8 of 23 Old 02-01-2017, 06:48 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warhawk View Post
PH is a big deal but not for the reason most of us think. Fish from the wild(most of use don't get these fish) can be stressed and could die from changing the PH. But most fish we buy are tank raised and will handle different PH no problem. Having said that you have to keep the PH stable because if it changes it could cause the fish to die.

My guess is what happened is the fish got shocked from the change. Don't feel too bad most people never think about the PH of the breeder online so never ask about it. They get their fish float the bag for 30 mins and move the fish. This works fine if the fish are local but to adjust from 8.5 to 4.5 would have taken weeks of slowly adding local water.
Hi Warhawk!

I purchased a cultured sponge filter from the breeder and had it in the tank for a few days before the fish arrived. Based on what I recall from microbiology in college and the experience with the first four fish, the radical change in pH killed off all the bacteria in the cultured sponge and I put the newly arrived fish in what was for all intents and purposes an uncycled tank. Then the pH change caused almost immediate problems but because I thought I had a cultured sponge, new tank syndrome never occurred to me or the breeder. The test solution I was using for pH was bad (not out of date but definitely not giving correct values) and that was the source of all my original problems. I have the utmost respect for pH now!

When I started using Neutral Regulator the two Koi perked right up. The other two (a half-black and a black lace) were too far gone I think, and both died within a couple of weeks.

Oh, and the breeder's recommended process to move fish from the shipping bag to the tank takes a few hours. His process requires moving the shipping water and fish to a bucket or other properly-sized container, adding Prime if necessary, running a drip line from the new tank to the bucket and slowly increasing the rate of drip until the volume in the bucket is 3x the volume of the shipping water. I've never floated a bag before. That sounds a lot easier but I've religiously followed the moving instructions and (after the pH issue was solved) all the fish moved without the first sign of problems.

When I moved the murderous paired pearlscale Koi out of the new tank and into a temporary tank (5g tank water, 5g treated tap water +a product called "seed" since I had only one sponge filter in the existing tank) I thought I could move them straight from the old tank to the temporary tank. That move killed both the fish within 48 hours. I have no idea why, which is why I'm being far more cautious about this new tank.

Quote:
They are great looking fish.
Thanks! As I said earlier I can only have so many Angelfish and I wanted what I wanted.

Quote:
Sorry for the quick reply running out of time tonight. Will be back in the morning.
No problem and thanks for returning!
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post #9 of 23 Old 02-01-2017, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelfishLover View Post
Hi Warhawk!

I purchased a cultured sponge filter from the breeder and had it in the tank for a few days before the fish arrived. Based on what I recall from microbiology in college and the experience with the first four fish, the radical change in pH killed off all the bacteria in the cultured sponge and I put the newly arrived fish in what was for all intents and purposes an uncycled tank. Then the pH change caused almost immediate problems but because I thought I had a cultured sponge, new tank syndrome never occurred to me or the breeder. The test solution I was using for pH was bad (not out of date but definitely not giving correct values) and that was the source of all my original problems. I have the utmost respect for pH now!


Oh, and the breeder's recommended process to move fish from the shipping bag to the tank takes a few hours. His process requires moving the shipping water and fish to a bucket or other properly-sized container, adding Prime if necessary, running a drip line from the new tank to the bucket and slowly increasing the rate of drip until the volume in the bucket is 3x the volume of the shipping water. I've never floated a bag before. That sounds a lot easier but I've religiously followed the moving instructions and (after the pH issue was solved) all the fish moved without the first sign of problems.

The sponge could have died from the PH shock, not a except on on PH but it makes sense to me.


On the Breeders process that does sound like a good way to adjust the fish. I would think for most cases it would be just fine, but the swing from 8.5 to 4.5 is HUGE!! I'm guessing you have learned how PH works but in case others don't know. PH 7.0 is neutral and every time the number goes up it doubles. So a 6.5 PH is twice as acidic as 6.6, then 6.4 is twice as 6.5. So a small change in the numbers is huge swing.

The process the breeder suggested is a better way to adjust fish for sure, most people buy locally and float the bag with fish in the tank for 30-45 mins. That will adjust the fish to the temp of the water and in most cases the water is very close to the same. Then open the bag remove the fish and add them to the tank, don't add the water from the bag to the tank.


You can follow Old Fort Exotics on You Tube and on my Fish room thread.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5l...KdIa-pb3K2zb7A
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/d...h-room-517930/

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post #10 of 23 Old 02-01-2017, 07:44 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warhawk View Post
The sponge could have died from the PH shock, not a except on on PH but it makes sense to me.


On the Breeders process that does sound like a good way to adjust the fish. I would think for most cases it would be just fine, but the swing from 8.5 to 4.5 is HUGE!! I'm guessing you have learned how PH works but in case others don't know. PH 7.0 is neutral and every time the number goes up it doubles. So a 6.5 PH is twice as acidic as 6.6, then 6.4 is twice as 6.5. So a small change in the numbers is huge swing.

The process the breeder suggested is a better way to adjust fish for sure, most people buy locally and float the bag with fish in the tank for 30-45 mins. That will adjust the fish to the temp of the water and in most cases the water is very close to the same. Then open the bag remove the fish and add them to the tank, don't add the water from the bag to the tank.
Hi!

If I recall correctly pH is a logarithmic function so yeah, the shock was tremendous for both bacteria and fish. Going from 8.5 to my now-pH-neutral 7.0 didn't cause the albinos or pearlscale Koi any problems at all from what I could tell by condition and behavior. The albinos in particular are doing well. The pearlscale Koi died when they tried to kill off the others after pairing and a quick move. Oops.

During a rant hubs suggested suing the testing solution company which is ridiculous, of course. I ought to have known better than to rely on one test type.
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