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A new soul seeking help

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A new soul seeking help
Old 03-04-2010, 02:56 AM   #11
 
iamntbatman's Avatar
 
Welcome to TFK!

Since your tank isn't cycled and is very small, I think you should probably do significant water changes (maybe 30% or so) every couple of hours, if you can, until you can get a larger tank. To understand why this is needed, check out these two articles on the aquarium cycle:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...ium-cycle-252/
Freshwater Cycling Methods

So, since you haven't established these bacteria colonies before adding your fish, ammonia levels are going to build up quite quickly, resulting in an environment that's toxic (and deadly) to your fish. Since you've already got the fish, you'll need to do a "fish-in" cycling that basically means monitoring ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels and doing water changes whenever ammonia and/or nitrite reach high enough levels to hurt your fish (generally anything that's detectable on your test kit, really). To do all of this measuring, you're going to need a good liquid test kit (not the paper test strips).

What kind of goldfish are these? If they're a fancy variety, six of them would probably be fine in something like a 75g in the long term but if they're comets or something similar you'd need a larger tank than that. How big are the fish now? If they're very small six of them could be temporarily housed in a 10g tank but you should upgrade to the full-sized tank as soon as you can. Fish growth stunted by being in a too-small tank leads to shorter fish lives and generally poor health.
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:09 AM   #12
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamntbatman View Post
Welcome to TFK!

Since your tank isn't cycled and is very small, I think you should probably do significant water changes (maybe 30% or so) every couple of hours, if you can, until you can get a larger tank. To understand why this is needed, check out these two articles on the aquarium cycle:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...ium-cycle-252/
Freshwater Cycling Methods

So, since you haven't established these bacteria colonies before adding your fish, ammonia levels are going to build up quite quickly, resulting in an environment that's toxic (and deadly) to your fish. Since you've already got the fish, you'll need to do a "fish-in" cycling that basically means monitoring ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels and doing water changes whenever ammonia and/or nitrite reach high enough levels to hurt your fish (generally anything that's detectable on your test kit, really). To do all of this measuring, you're going to need a good liquid test kit (not the paper test strips).

What kind of goldfish are these? If they're a fancy variety, six of them would probably be fine in something like a 75g in the long term but if they're comets or something similar you'd need a larger tank than that. How big are the fish now? If they're very small six of them could be temporarily housed in a 10g tank but you should upgrade to the full-sized tank as soon as you can. Fish growth stunted by being in a too-small tank leads to shorter fish lives and generally poor health.


Well It looks like today I am at the very least getting a ten gallon tank, and hopefully within the month getting a tank that seems to be at least 25 gallons but noone is entirely sure and they're too lazy to measure it so I'll just do that when I get it, I'll keep up with the 30% water changes about every 3 hours, since I don't know if any more frequent than that would be a bad idea, and I'll be going to grab good water testing kits today along with some more gravel to use with the larger tank.


Since it looks like I'll be getting the 10 gallon first, and I've been reading about setting up tanks with bacteria with only 2 fish for the first 6-8 weeks and then 2 fish every week or so after that, should I try to do the 25 or larger tank properly as such, or should I try to get them out of the 10 gallon tank quicker than that?


And as for what kind of goldfish they are I'm honestly not sure, they were simply labelled as goldfish, and they all vary wildly in colors from half black an dhalf orange, to mostly white with some orange(which I'm not wondering if this was a bad sign buying them or if it is actually just their colors) To be honest they were from a larger store, and the cheap generic quarter a piece goldfish, but they all seemed healthy looking (to someone who doesn't know what healthy is exactly) and I found 6 that I really liked, knowing that my choices for an unheated tank seemed limited to betta and goldfish.

They are small now, from 1 to 3.5 inches in length, and if I do put them in the 25 gallon or larger tank and they can live for longer than a few months healthily I would want to get a much larger tank, just initially getting a gigantic tank if I'm not sure if I'll be able to keep them is something I'm going to avoid for right now.

Last edited by Castro235; 03-04-2010 at 09:24 AM..
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:18 AM   #13
 
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Well, right NOW, they will be okay in a 10 gallon with frequent waterchanges.

Unfortunately, your fish sound like some koi I've seen.
Koi are normally only kept in ponds...

(they might not be koi, wait until someone else contributes.)

As far as tankmates for the goldfish, I'm afraid your options are extremely limited.
Keep in mind though, by the time you have the 25G, you'll have an empty 10G and a 1.5G.

Goldfish are messy fish and have to be kept in "coldwater" tanks... so there aren't really any good tankmates unless you can find some sort of "dwarf" goldfish that stays small. (i doubt it)

Most of the members of this board made their first post because they had a question.
Inevitably, you ask another... and another... and then someone asks something you know the answer to... and then you're hooked. :)
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Old 03-04-2010, 12:26 PM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by redchigh View Post
Well, right NOW, they will be okay in a 10 gallon with frequent waterchanges.

Unfortunately, your fish sound like some koi I've seen.
Koi are normally only kept in ponds...

(they might not be koi, wait until someone else contributes.)

As far as tankmates for the goldfish, I'm afraid your options are extremely limited.
Keep in mind though, by the time you have the 25G, you'll have an empty 10G and a 1.5G.

Goldfish are messy fish and have to be kept in "coldwater" tanks... so there aren't really any good tankmates unless you can find some sort of "dwarf" goldfish that stays small. (i doubt it)

Most of the members of this board made their first post because they had a question.
Inevitably, you ask another... and another... and then someone asks something you know the answer to... and then you're hooked. :)

Well, the more and more I'm looking, I'm really starting to get interested in using that 1.5 gallon tank for shrimp. I figure I should keep the 10 gallon tank for if I decide anything else in the future. I would love to keep some sort of shrimp or aquarium snail or suckerfish in with the goldfish, but I doubt anything is compatible and I'm having a bit of trouble finding much good information on that topic.

For now I got that ten gallon tank, I set it up with clean gravel at the bottom, used the under-gravel filter my 1.5 came with (several sources on the specific tank said the filter was useless for the tiny tanks fish, and it only good for a larger tank) so I'm hoping its adequate for a little while. I did not clean the two fake plants I put from the goldfish tank Im using into the new tank, as it seems from the places I read that ammonia from the fish is vital for bacteria propogation, so I figured those two small plants would be better of not being cleaned, right now the 10 gallon tank is set up, with the filter running and the plants and gravel but not fish. I want to let it run for awhile, and I'm currently going to get a thermometer and water test strips, to ensure the 10 gallon is ready before I put my fish into it.
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Old 03-04-2010, 01:43 PM   #15
 
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I doubt the plants would do a whole lot, since ammonia is a liquid (okay, weter soluble gas, but still)
Your options are:
"feed" the tank: place a tiny bit of fish food in it every other day, and when ammonia is zero, add 1-2 fish. a week later, is ammonia is 0, add 1-2 more, etc.
or
place 1 fish in the tank to produce ammonia. (preferably the one that is your least favorite, since it may not survive the process), then add fish as described above.
or
add 1 drop of ammonia (NOT WINDEX- cleaning ammonia, clear stuff) to 1 cup of water, and add about a tablespoon to the tank every week until nitrates appear, then begin "feeding" the water as above-, then when ammonia is 0 add fish as described above.
(this would only decrease the cycling time by 1-3 days, so isn't really worth it unless you really want to. Cycling normally takes 2-4 weeks for me.)

One more thing I didn't think about-
Do you know anyone with a freshwater tank?

If so you can just rinse their bio-filter into your tank (assuming you already used the proper water additives- don't wanna kill their bacteria, you just want to borrow some!)
Once you rinse the "gunk" (nasty stuff but good for the tank- FULL of good bacteria!) you can add fish immediately, but as describes above.
(sorry I'm lazy... lol)

Also, get some hornwort for your goldfish tank. It tastes bad and helps absorb ammonia. (hornwort could also be an alternative to cycling- buy a TON (a several handfuls) and place it in the 10G, and buy some good cool-spectrum CFL (10 watts) for the tank.
Plants absorb ammonia, making cycling unneccesary, plus they won't eat the plant... and it grows in coldwater.
Basically any plants what grow in ponds will work in the tank.
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Old 03-04-2010, 02:19 PM   #16
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by redchigh View Post
I doubt the plants would do a whole lot, since ammonia is a liquid (okay, weter soluble gas, but still)
Your options are:
"feed" the tank: place a tiny bit of fish food in it every other day, and when ammonia is zero, add 1-2 fish. a week later, is ammonia is 0, add 1-2 more, etc.
or
place 1 fish in the tank to produce ammonia. (preferably the one that is your least favorite, since it may not survive the process), then add fish as described above.
or
add 1 drop of ammonia (NOT WINDEX- cleaning ammonia, clear stuff) to 1 cup of water, and add about a tablespoon to the tank every week until nitrates appear, then begin "feeding" the water as above-, then when ammonia is 0 add fish as described above.
(this would only decrease the cycling time by 1-3 days, so isn't really worth it unless you really want to. Cycling normally takes 2-4 weeks for me.)

One more thing I didn't think about-
Do you know anyone with a freshwater tank?

If so you can just rinse their bio-filter into your tank (assuming you already used the proper water additives- don't wanna kill their bacteria, you just want to borrow some!)
Once you rinse the "gunk" (nasty stuff but good for the tank- FULL of good bacteria!) you can add fish immediately, but as describes above.
(sorry I'm lazy... lol)

Also, get some hornwort for your goldfish tank. It tastes bad and helps absorb ammonia. (hornwort could also be an alternative to cycling- buy a TON (a several handfuls) and place it in the 10G, and buy some good cool-spectrum CFL (10 watts) for the tank.
Plants absorb ammonia, making cycling unneccesary, plus they won't eat the plant... and it grows in coldwater.
Basically any plants what grow in ponds will work in the tank.

unfortunately I do not know if the fish would survive in the 1.5 gallon tank for a week even if I did a full cleaning daily, if they do end up dying I will be much more prepared to do things right, but my hopes are to keep these fish as they are.


I let the 10 galon sit for about an hour and a half, it was room temperature for awhile, I filled it with the gravel, I have the under-gravel air stone, I purchased an aqueon 10-20 gallon water filtration system, I put all 6 fish into the tank along with about .5 to .75 gallons of their water mixed with over 9 gallons of clean water, I treated the water with the treater I got for freshwater tanks, and it is now up to the fishes whether they can survive after my negligence int he tank during the cycling process.


Obviously I'll help them survive by feeding and many pwc's, but its still their resolve that needs to be strong!
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:40 AM   #17
 
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I think moving the fish to the 10g tank and cycling that tank with fish is a much better option than leaving them in the 1.5g tank and doing a fishless cycle on the 10g. A fishless cycle can take several weeks or more to complete and it would be impossible to keep the water quality in the 1.5g high enough for them to survive that long.

I think you need to add more filtration to the 10g. The tiny UGF that came with the 1.5g is not going to provide enough filtration. I'd recommend slapping a Marineland Penguin filter on there, maybe the 150 model.

If these were the "feeder" goldfish sold at the big chain pet stores then they're likely common goldfish. Unfortunately for you, this means that they do get much larger than the fancy varieties and will break one foot in length easily. Ultimately, they'll need a very large tank (on the order of 120g or more) or, ideally, a pond to live in.
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:35 AM   #18
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamntbatman View Post
I think moving the fish to the 10g tank and cycling that tank with fish is a much better option than leaving them in the 1.5g tank and doing a fishless cycle on the 10g. A fishless cycle can take several weeks or more to complete and it would be impossible to keep the water quality in the 1.5g high enough for them to survive that long.

I think you need to add more filtration to the 10g. The tiny UGF that came with the 1.5g is not going to provide enough filtration. I'd recommend slapping a Marineland Penguin filter on there, maybe the 150 model.

If these were the "feeder" goldfish sold at the big chain pet stores then they're likely common goldfish. Unfortunately for you, this means that they do get much larger than the fancy varieties and will break one foot in length easily. Ultimately, they'll need a very large tank (on the order of 120g or more) or, ideally, a pond to live in.

Well although it's only been a day, to someone who doesn't know they seem to be alot happier.
Obviously they're swimming more as they didn't previously have the room, and they don't seem to be blowing bubbles or eating bubbles on the side(which somewhere I believe said is a bad thing) I haven't noticed any swimming sideways or anything, and they all seem to be eating just fine.

The filter seems to be doing a heap of good, the water has remained very clear for almost 24 hours now, as I did get an aqueon 10 filter with the wheel and bio-canister and all that jazz, but I am keeping the airstone from the 1.5 gallon tank in there to provide some aeration(although most people have told me I don't need it with an open-top tank and the waterwheel raised above the surface to push some air down as well, along with the fact that I want to get more live plants) and because I have been thinking about using the 1.5 gallon for one or two shrimp, so if I could get the undergravel filter deal nice and bacteria filled before I set that up it seems like I should, or something else, as eventually I seem to be liking the idea of using the 10 gallon for breeding ghost or cherry shrimponce I have the goldies in a larger tank.(Ideally, I would love to have a 100+ planted tank for these guys a year or so down the line, I know this 10 gallon is only temporary until at least a 25 which may have to last them awhile)

I am planning on upgrading to a larger tank as soon as I can, but I'm not working at the moment, so my options are pretty limited, I'm checking ads constantly, and trying to convince my girlfriend to give me the one thats been in the basement untouched for years, I believe now that it would be at least a 30 gallon.


My only big concern at the moment is about feeding them.

I know they are still adjusting to being bumped from bowl to bowl, so it isn't really that high of a concern, but at the moment I am feeding them just what they finish in 2-3 minutes twice a day, but my concern is that they won't go to the top to get the food, only when it floats down on its own, or when I move the water with my net to coax the food down.

They really only seem like they get 30 seconds or so actually eating, so I don't know if there's something I should or can do, as I don't want to overfeed them, I figured I would ask people who know.

Last edited by Castro235; 03-05-2010 at 08:38 AM..
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Old 03-06-2010, 04:27 AM   #19
 
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Actually it's better that they aren't coming to the surface. If you can find a sinking goldfish pellet (you'd need a small size of course) that'd be best for them. Floating foods in general (along with the air that gets ingested when goldfish eat from the surface) is a notorious cause of swim bladder issues in goldfish.

If you don't have one yet, the next thing you should buy is a good liquid test kit. The tank is now cycling and has a heavy bioload, so water changes are still going to be essential. I would change 25% or more of the water daily; having a liquid test kit would allow you to monitor ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels and thus perform water changes as needed rather than just shooting in the dark. I prefer the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. You can find much better deals for it online than in brick and mortar stores (Ken's Fish has it for around $20 while Petco charges $35 or something ludicrous in-store).
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Old 03-06-2010, 07:46 AM   #20
 
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Actually it's better that they aren't coming to the surface. If you can find a sinking goldfish pellet (you'd need a small size of course) that'd be best for them. Floating foods in general (along with the air that gets ingested when goldfish eat from the surface) is a notorious cause of swim bladder issues in goldfish.

If you don't have one yet, the next thing you should buy is a good liquid test kit. The tank is now cycling and has a heavy bioload, so water changes are still going to be essential. I would change 25% or more of the water daily; having a liquid test kit would allow you to monitor ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels and thus perform water changes as needed rather than just shooting in the dark. I prefer the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. You can find much better deals for it online than in brick and mortar stores (Ken's Fish has it for around $20 while Petco charges $35 or something ludicrous in-store).
Well I have flakes that they seem to be eating once they sink, so I just help them sink with a good prod from a net, and they seem to be happily eating once I do that, I just did aout a 20% pwc last night, (looked like I drained more than I did) I actually plan on ding around 30-35% pwcs, I'm not sure if I'm better off doing this daily, or every other day, I don't mind doing it daily, but I don't know if that would be in excess and be bad for the little guys.

I've been looking for cheap test kits, as right now even just 20 dollars is unfortunately a decent chunk for me, so I've been hoping that with the regular pwcs, and making sure they eat enough(but not too much of course) throughout the cycle they can make it to the end of the cycling process, and then when I can get the larger tank, since I don't know if I'll be making a purchase, or getting one from someone, I will be doing a cycle in the larger tank and monitoring everything closely and properly in both tanks before I switch them into the larger tank.

And on the bright side of things, with my expensive new siphon(A human powered tube) I learned that the water didn't taste much different if at all than my tapwater, so I would think that may be a good sign!

Also, my girlfriends new betta passed on at some point last night, she has had him since wednesday, and he's seemed active, but wouldn't really eat, he's in a 1.5 gallon tank right next to her 6 month old betta's bowl, if it was this quick would it be more likely he was already going, or perhaps he was stressed being able to see the other betta but not having anything really to hide in other than a smallish fake plant?


Thanks
Anthony
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