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post #21 of 51 Old 12-22-2012, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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Probably a good idea. If you read my articles on hardness/pH, TDS, and stress,in each is mentioned the effect these have on fish and how oxygen is related.
Do you folks measure your dissolved oxygen as I do? It seems quite important to me. Is there a good level in general? I have searched but really found no information using my search terms. (eg. I keep my pond at about 10 PPM DO2 so the microbes use up the duck poo.)

I do realize that water TDS is interrelated with DO2 but I'm also aware that extra aeration can drive the pH up.
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post #22 of 51 Old 12-22-2012, 06:20 PM
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Do you folks measure your dissolved oxygen as I do? It seems quite important to me. Is there a good level in general? I have searched but really found no information using my search terms. (eg. I keep my pond at about 10 PPM DO2 so the microbes use up the duck poo.)

I do realize that water TDS is interrelated with DO2 but I'm also aware that extra aeration can drive the pH up.
I have never fussed over oxygen. I can't remember which source said it, but the point was that you will never had an oxygen deficiency provided things are within balance. Overstocking, no water changes, overfeeding can all contribute to this. And of course other factors like temperature, live plants, etc.

Aeration if it caused more CO2 to be driven out might affect the pH.

Byron.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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post #23 of 51 Old 12-26-2012, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I've got the discus home and they will be lucky to survive. I checked the pH of the bag water at 3.6. This is of almost fermentive numbers and can be indicative of high fungi volume. I had no choice but to put them into my 7.1 pH water.

My O2 is at 7.2 and I'm going to aerate for a little while with the thought that extra O2 may help them recover. If this is wrong....let me know.

Tim
Well miraculously the discus are still living and have begun showing an interest in food albiet not much. 9 of them have lightened in color which I understand is a good sign.

I've been feeding them the Tetra color, as that is what the breeder fed but got them started on freeze dried blackworms today. I also bought some Omega One small pellet food today which is supposed to be for marine fish and consists of whole herring, salmon, cod, shrimp, kril and garlic along with all the usual. I read that garlic was good for discus, especially for getting them eating.

If there is anything wrong with feeding this please speak up.

Also, I noticed that the algae wafers for plecostomus consist of mostly alfalfa meal and kelp meal. I have lots of this. Can I just feed this?
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post #24 of 51 Old 12-26-2012, 06:36 PM Thread Starter
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I forgot. I have a wild hypothesis. Since it is virtually impossible that the pH of the breeder's tank was 3.6 and still have fish which were not pickled, I wonder if it was a temporary situation brought on by the 10 fish themselves all crowded into a one half gallon bag of water. They would have been 'fearful' and 'stressed' and perhaps discus have some sort of secretory system wherefrom they excrete acid exudates. It is not beyond the realm of possibilities, since parents emit epidermal food for the youngsters. It could be a reaction or even a defense mechanism to make themselves unsavory.

It could even be released in their waste.

Plants and microorganisms excrete an acid similar to citric acid.

I tried researching this in the biology world and although I was surprised at the number of discus studies and papers, this perspective was not amongst them. It might make a good study subject.

Comments?
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post #25 of 51 Old 12-26-2012, 06:40 PM Thread Starter
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Edit: I did raise the dissolved oxygen from 7.1 to 7.5 PPM, first with a stone but now a foam airlift filter.
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post #26 of 51 Old 12-27-2012, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Timjwilson View Post
I forgot. I have a wild hypothesis. Since it is virtually impossible that the pH of the breeder's tank was 3.6 and still have fish which were not pickled, I wonder if it was a temporary situation brought on by the 10 fish themselves all crowded into a one half gallon bag of water. They would have been 'fearful' and 'stressed' and perhaps discus have some sort of secretory system wherefrom they excrete acid exudates. It is not beyond the realm of possibilities, since parents emit epidermal food for the youngsters. It could be a reaction or even a defense mechanism to make themselves unsavory.

It could even be released in their waste.

Plants and microorganisms excrete an acid similar to citric acid.

I tried researching this in the biology world and although I was surprised at the number of discus studies and papers, this perspective was not amongst them. It might make a good study subject.

Comments?
I suspect the low pH in the bag was produced for shipping via R/O water and tap, or with buffering agent's to prevent the ammonia from respiration,waste,from affecting the ten fish in small bag in negative fashion. (specualting).

The most important medication in your fish medicine cabinet is.. Clean water.
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post #27 of 51 Old 12-27-2012, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Timjwilson View Post
Do you folks measure your dissolved oxygen as I do? It seems quite important to me. Is there a good level in general? I have searched but really found no information using my search terms. (eg. I keep my pond at about 10 PPM DO2 so the microbes use up the duck poo.)

I do realize that water TDS is interrelated with DO2 but I'm also aware that extra aeration can drive the pH up.
Is said, fishes will do poorly with DO level's below 5ppm.(will begin exhibiting effect's ).
Would ,were it me,,want level's near 5ppm at elevated temp's Discus thrive in.
With lot's of plant's,,I should think this would not be an issue for the plant's will produce enough O2 during the day,to hold the fishes over during the evening when plant's consume the O2.
Higher temp's = less dissolved O2 as I' sure you know, and Byron touched on other thing's to consider that can work to deplete O2.

The most important medication in your fish medicine cabinet is.. Clean water.
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post #28 of 51 Old 12-27-2012, 08:08 AM
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I suspect the low pH in the bag was due to the reasons you listed.

With a major input from very high carbon dioxide levels.


FWIW when I introduce new fish I skip a day or two of feeding while the fish get used to the new setting.

But that's just my .02
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maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #29 of 51 Old 12-27-2012, 02:25 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input. Good point Bealsbob on the high CO2. I should have added that to my list. The breeder says he did not add anything to the bag water, nor the tank water.

I raise aerobic microorganisms in a bioreactor by keeping the dissolved oxygen at 6 PPM or greater. I'm unsure as of yet what the ideal is for most freshwater warm water aquarium fish but have read that most cold water fish thrive at 7> PPM.
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post #30 of 51 Old 12-27-2012, 07:35 PM
So how are the discus doing? I'm curious, I have never seen them raised from that small before. Interesting because the price is right, they are so expensive full grown.


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