my fish keep dying HELP - Page 5 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #41 of 58 Old 12-12-2012, 02:14 AM Thread Starter
you mean i should stop listning to the atm people? because i have personally seeked advice from them and got responses... so please dont tell me to not listen to them (there the "tanked" people if you didnt know) and please quit telling me plants there out of the question i will do a water change tomorrow and add prime and the nutrilizer.. im not doing a water change every day its horrible to do to a fish.. (very stress full) and i will read the article. ok :) thank you guys for the help!!!
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post #42 of 58 Old 12-12-2012, 03:47 AM
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After spending an hour a time, twice a day doing water changes myself due to my own fault I can see why you don't want to however you say it's because it's stressful for the fish.... but surely it's not as stressful for them as swimming in toxic water..... though I suppose there's no stress in death........ :O

Plus you can always limit the stress.... being very careful as you do it.... lights off etc. Anything to help really.

I also had problems with my levels etc, and taking advice from people on here I added more plants, and honestly the more I added the faster my situation improved. ( and the prettier my tank got!) I'm no plant salesman either, but there can't be this insurmountable support for them here, with scientific backing for no reason. Forget your prejudice against them and start thinking about the good of your fish.....
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post #43 of 58 Old 12-12-2012, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Spidykat View Post
you mean i should stop listning to the atm people? because i have personally seeked advice from them and got responses... so please dont tell me to not listen to them (there the "tanked" people if you didnt know) and please quit telling me plants there out of the question i will do a water change tomorrow and add prime and the nutrilizer.. im not doing a water change every day its horrible to do to a fish.. (very stress full) and i will read the article. ok :) thank you guys for the help!!!
The advice you're getting from ATM isn't good or you wouldn't be posting ' My fish are dying Help'. If you keep doing what you were doing your fish are going to keep dying. We are all trying to help you and your fish but you seem unwilling to change what you're doing, which by the way is killing fish.
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Consider the needs of your fish before acting on your desires.

Last edited by marshallsea; 12-12-2012 at 05:28 AM.
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post #44 of 58 Old 12-12-2012, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadian Fish View Post
Something killed your fish before, but I doubt it was the plants. That was a coincidence I'm sure. There's a reason everyone here is suggesting plants. It's not because we're plant salesmen.

One reason you may be cycling again is because you only used old water, and not old media. The good bacteria is in the media.

As for this

No fish "like" or prefer 40 ppm and above. Less is always better, for all freshwater fish, I assume. I try to keep mine around 5. 40 and higher would be harmful to your fish, in my opinion.
Oh wow, here we go... folks try to make your point without being so harsh. This is the main reason why most people leave forums, they get their feelings hurt by someone who is really trying to help them, but they word things the wrong way. And remember, pushing someone into a corner against their better judgement and willpower will only get you pushed into the corner.

We can ask on question, or research a topic on the internet and get several different answers. Just like salt with pleco's... I have always heard that salt is not good for scaleless fish (plecos, catfish, loaches) and I took that advice (with no documented proof) because that was what I wanted to believe and I thought those people know more than I do. I just researched salt and pleco's and found that people have used small amounts of salt in their tank with pleco's with no ill effects, but... what is considered a small amount? Same with ich meds, read the label, some say "ok with scaleless fish" well that's the one I buy because without any other information to the contrary, I will just have to trust this company that it will not kill my pleco's.

The biological filter is the heartbeat of the aquarium, you all know that. There are certain things, that without a doubt, if they are not attended to... will make this heart weak, and over time... sometimes a very short time period... will kill it. This is why people who know get so passionate about this subject because it is a terrible and sad thing when something goes wrong, and an innocent living creature dies.

I do not know who, but someone much smarter than I am, studied ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, etc. and have set limits. These limits have been the same for years, they must be right. Some things do not change over time, they just can't, it is what it is, take it or leave it, like it or not. We are not meaning to badger you over this, we are just trying to stress the importance of these things and help you. As far as water changes and why they are necessary, even if the fish don't like it, well the water change is the most effective way to remove things from their "home" that can and will make them sick. It's not a coin toss... it is true. Not because I said it's true or anybody else, it is scientific fact, that bad stuff has got to come out and if it's ammonia or nitrites, it needs to come out now, not tomorrow or the next day. High readings of nitrates, same thing, they are not "as" harmful to your fish but not good either and will have some effect very soon, and a fish who's health is somewhat compromised (due to stress, etc.) will be the first ones to be affected. Please consider these things when making your decision.

If someone says they do not like plants, let it be, they have already made their decision. If someone trusts another forum or group, there's not much you can do to change that. I did see where someone said "I am surprised ATM has advised you to the contrary" that's cool... let them know, they need to know, but try to say it as nicely as you can as to not offend and then let it be. You did your part to warn them. I really try to approach things in a gentle manner and still mess things up so I am not pointing fingers, just be kind :)
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Last edited by lakemalawifish; 12-12-2012 at 09:33 AM.
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post #45 of 58 Old 12-12-2012, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Spidykat View Post
ok so i know how to check the tap water and everything was at the levels it needs to be 0 amonia 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates. i have had a reading of 7.8 ph.. on tap water. i didnt use old filter media i used the gross filter water and soaked the new media in the old filter water.. (i had a 60 gallon canaster filter i got the water from..).
i did that water change and added the prime and now my levels are good except for ammonia so i used atm outbreak. and then added an ammonia detoxifier and i have always been told if the nitrates are 40ppm and above they are safe (depending on the fish, and my fish like 40ppm and above.)

so please let me know im just worried about the ammonia....
Spidykat: We are all here to help. I am familiar with the ATM group and watch the show. But I'm not familiar with their brands. I AM familiar with Prime which you have and can use from single dose up to 5X in emergencies to help your fish.
You are in FULL Cycle mode with a huge amount of fish present.
The bacteria grows on surfaces. It IS NOT in the water, or the gunk. It grows, 2 diff kinds, in 2 different stages, on your gravel, plastic plants, filter media, glass surfaces, rocks etc. on SURFACES. If you started a brand new tank using dirty filter water all you did was use dirty filter water basically. You can only battle the 3 cycling stages by doing daily water changes with Prime. Since you already have a huge number of fish then your only option to prevent death is daily water changes. This will dilute any high numbers as you have stated your tap water is all zeros.
As for the advice you have been given... I expect you were getting answers based on the info you provided them. If you said, "Yes I used media from another tank." rather than "I actually used dirty water from another filter" I think you may have got a different course of action.
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post #46 of 58 Old 12-12-2012, 10:29 AM
I'm sorry if I came off as harsh, but no fish "like" nitrates above 40 ppm, regardless of what someone has been told. And using filter water is not the same as using filter media. Which were the two main parts of my post. I also mentioned the plants. You are correct, if someone doesn't want plants, no need to beat a dead horse. But if someone is still looking for advice, and their situation hasn't improved, we can only suggest what we know.

Last edited by Canadian Fish; 12-12-2012 at 10:33 AM.
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post #47 of 58 Old 12-12-2012, 11:09 AM
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Spidykat: Personally, I have watched tanked and said to myself "omg wow, that's wrong!" abouta couple things. I still like the show though.

If there's any other questions, feel free to ask. I'm afraid this thread has gotten a bit off topic. Water changes and time is all that will fix your problem, in my opinion. bamboo wouldactually help in your tank as long as all the leaves are out of the water (in the filter basket maybe).
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Last edited by redchigh; 12-12-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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post #48 of 58 Old 12-12-2012, 12:05 PM
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Something that may be of interest. I ran across this video last night and even though we put sponge filters in established tanks and let them run for several weeks so whenever we need to set up a quick tank in our fish room for fry, sick fish, etc., this has really caught my attention. In a round about way, I think this is what the author of this thread did to start her tank. She soaked a filter in the water in her canister from a tank in her home that was running successfully with no issues. I would say that is not much different from squeezing a used sponge filter into a cup of tank water and pouring that tank water into the newly set up tank. Only thing that sparks a light bulb in my head is if the canister is very dirty and is highly saturated with nitrates. But, many times I have cleaned out our canisters and poured this water down the toilet thinking... "wonder if this is where bio in a bottle comes from"

This is interesting enough for me to take note, what do you guys think?

Last edited by lakemalawifish; 12-12-2012 at 12:09 PM.
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post #49 of 58 Old 12-12-2012, 12:24 PM
I have no idea if this works, I have never tried it. It very well could.I am certainly no expert I would have thought the sponge would have to soak longer. I don't squeeze water out of an established sponge though, as you mentioned. I use the sponge, or a chunk of it if the new filter is smaller, and put it right in the new filter. My understanding is the bacteria is on the surface of the sponge, as opposed to the water in it.

When I "instantly" cycled a tank recently, I cut a chuck of established sponge to fit the filter. I also put the rest of the filter in the water. I also added a nylon full of substrate from an established tank, and water from an established tank (though I am told this does not help). I also added a bottle of colony, and plants.

This tank never had nitrites or ammonia.

Here is a video of the setup. There are twice as many plants in there now, this is when it was first set up. This is as much for the pea puffers to keep down aggression as it is for water quality.

Everyone is correct about water changes. Good water quality will help the fish more than any additives, and in the long term, the benefits far outweigh any short term stress the fish may endure.

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post #50 of 58 Old 12-12-2012, 12:30 PM
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Spidykat, your issue right now is ammonia so your tank is just going to have to take time to cycle and the water changes and Prime like you are doing are emergency treatments while this is going on. There are some other more complicated factors with ammonia that I am not real up on, but here's an article regarding Chloramines. I would advise you to contact your local water company and ask if they use Chloramines to disinfect the water at your tap. Chloramines are even more toxic to fish than Chlorine, and not all water conditioners treat and remove Chloramines. We could not get a definite answer from our water company so we have to assume that they use Chloramines whenever they feel they need to. That is why we are so dead set on using Prime because we trust that the Chloramines are being dealt with.

Let's get your ammonia down, keep it down and when things settle down a bit, we can move on to the next step. Bless your heart, I can tell you are at your wits end (HUGS)

Last edited by Byron; 12-12-2012 at 01:27 PM. Reason: remove link to another forum.
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