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More filtration for my 125gal

This is a discussion on More filtration for my 125gal within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> I agree with Abbey. For biological filtration X fish will produce Y ammonia which eventually gets converted to Z nitrates. Those are pretty much ...

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More filtration for my 125gal
Old 05-02-2012, 08:31 AM   #11
 
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I agree with Abbey.

For biological filtration X fish will produce Y ammonia which eventually gets converted to Z nitrates. Those are pretty much constants in an established tank, adding more filters would not change anything about that. The only reason, for biological filtration, that you would add a second filter is if the one you have can't process the level of ammonia produced.

Now, if your water is dirty with lots of floating debris then perhaps you should look at an additional filter, or a higher flow rate, to get increased mechanical filtration. Just keep the fish in mind and what they need for flow rates.

If you don't want another canister, your only choices are a sump or a HOB for that size aquarium. A sump will cost you more than a canister unless you happen to find one second hand for a good deal. You need another aquarium, glass cut to size to compartmentalize it (maybe acrylic is okay, don't know), aquarium silicone to seal the added glass, media, a water pump, and various bits of plumbing (usually PVC).
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:37 AM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by CinBos View Post
Havent considered it. I received the Marineland canister very very very cheap, so I dont see myself parting ways. I'm also not looking to buy another canister, too much money at the moment. Just something to help the canister with the bio load. Not looking for a substitute for cleaning/water changes, thats inevitable.

Also, I only have petsmarts and petco near me, if that helps with any of the suggestions.
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If you don't want another canister and you don't want to break the bank. Get an Aquaclear 110. It is 500 gph which is decent as a compliment to your current filter. I got one online for $50 free shipping a month ago.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:30 AM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by Geomancer View Post
I agree with Abbey.

For biological filtration X fish will produce Y ammonia which eventually gets converted to Z nitrates. Those are pretty much constants in an established tank, adding more filters would not change anything about that. The only reason, for biological filtration, that you would add a second filter is if the one you have can't process the level of ammonia produced.

Now, if your water is dirty with lots of floating debris then perhaps you should look at an additional filter, or a higher flow rate, to get increased mechanical filtration. Just keep the fish in mind and what they need for flow rates.

If you don't want another canister, your only choices are a sump or a HOB for that size aquarium. A sump will cost you more than a canister unless you happen to find one second hand for a good deal. You need another aquarium, glass cut to size to compartmentalize it (maybe acrylic is okay, don't know), aquarium silicone to seal the added glass, media, a water pump, and various bits of plumbing (usually PVC).
X amount of fish will only produce Y ammonia, if X amount of fish don't grow.
Anyone who has kept large cichlids, will have observed that nearly half what they eat, passes back out across their gills and fallls to the substrate in addition to poop created by the fish after it has eaten.
Without vigorous circulation, and enhanced mechanical,biological, filtration the waste and dissolved solids created by a group of these fishes can easily become more problematic than it need to be bewteen water changes.
Most folks, tend to over feed their fishes from the outset, and increase the amount's as the fish grow so bacterial colony is alway's adjusting to increases or fluctuations of metabolic input such as right after feeding's,hatching of fry,additional fish,loss of fish, loss of biological bacteria through cleaning,or by loss of oxygen and thus bacteria in closed ,dirty canister.(keep the filter media clean)
Is no constant in my view, in glass box of water where so many thing's can influence the increase or decrease of biological activity.
This is why I don't care for the term (cycled aquarium) for it implies that at some point, the process is complete,or that it is some constant variable when in fact it is an ongoing ,ever changing ,process.
The bacterial colony increase or decreases as it need 's along with all mannner of other micro-organisim's.
For larger South american cichlid's or numerous smaller cichlid's,, you cannot over filter their tank .IMHO
Don't take my word for it, go visit folks on forums that care for these large waste producing fish, and gauge their opinion's before forming your own.
Keep in mind that advertised flow rates for filter's don't take into account the reduced flow after filter is packed with media, and or becomes dirty as they do through 24 hour operation 7 day's a week.
(did I mention keeping filter's clean?)

My path would be clear if clean water/low organic waste was my aim.

Last edited by 1077; 05-02-2012 at 09:38 AM..
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:57 AM   #14
 
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That's why I said established, which by that I was meaning 6+ months after adding the last fish.

No, the ammonia produced won't be strictly a constant, but it should be fairly stable and never varying by more then a couple percent. Small enough that the system can easily compensate without a noticeable 'mini-cycle', as in your liquid test kit will always read 0 ppm ammonia, even if their is a trace amount.

I was more arguing against the belief some have that more filters, or bigger filters, will make the water 'cleaner' which simply isn't the case. Like putting a Fluval FX5 on a 55 gallon aquarium with regular community fish ... that massive filter isn't helping anything (even if you ignore the huge flow rate). Or putting two Aquaclear 110 filters on the same tank. Things along those lines.

I don't dispute that cichlids are large waste producers, but I do stand by my statement that having more filtration than needed for the amount of ammonia produced is pretty pointless, unless you need the flow for the fish.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:10 PM   #15
 
Actually, even with large waste producers, the water purity is not aided with more filters and faster flow rates...quite the contrary. Frankly the waste might better settle into the substrate where it more slowly decomposes and feeds the food web there until some is removed with the weekly siphoning.
Detritus in a filter decomposes quickly and with the rush of water around it, quickly becomes a manure tea of dissolved organic compounds (DOCs) that pollute the water.

I know...lots of folks see any little bit of mulm on the substrate and want to get another filter or a power head or something to stir the pot so the detritus is outta sight (and outta mind). It's just silly really. I'll bet there are even some with heavily planted tanks that may spend too much time removing mulm instead of letting it naturally feed the plants.

Sometimes we need to rethink filtration/water purification. I realize that not all aquariums will be biotopes, but the more we work with nature, the more stable the established aquarium becomes. The more we do to prevent and/or remove the DOCs, the more pure the water will be. We're dependent on (sometimes fairly large) weekly water changes because we do not filter/purify water very well.

When I was a youngster (100 years ago) my Mom had a 5g slate bottomed metaframe aquarium. Incandescent light and a bubble up HOB filter. She always had anacharis floating and there was always a good layer of mulm over a half inch or less gravel. Water level was topped off, but partial water changes were rare if at all. But all of the fish in that tank were the most healthy, beautiful fish I think I've ever seen. I probably don't have to tell you that the GPH in a bubble up HOB isn't all that much!...and with little/no partial weekly water changes, you gotta wonder, how was this miracle tank possible???
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:03 PM   #16
 
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Hmmm, So no need for extra filtration?
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:26 PM   #17
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeysDad View Post
Actually, even with large waste producers, the water purity is not aided with more filters and faster flow rates...quite the contrary. Frankly the waste might better settle into the substrate where it more slowly decomposes and feeds the food web there until some is removed with the weekly siphoning.
Detritus in a filter decomposes quickly and with the rush of water around it, quickly becomes a manure tea of dissolved organic compounds (DOCs) that pollute the water.

I know...lots of folks see any little bit of mulm on the substrate and want to get another filter or a power head or something to stir the pot so the detritus is outta sight (and outta mind). It's just silly really. I'll bet there are even some with heavily planted tanks that may spend too much time removing mulm instead of letting it naturally feed the plants.

Sometimes we need to rethink filtration/water purification. I realize that not all aquariums will be biotopes, but the more we work with nature, the more stable the established aquarium becomes. The more we do to prevent and/or remove the DOCs, the more pure the water will be. We're dependent on (sometimes fairly large) weekly water changes because we do not filter/purify water very well.

When I was a youngster (100 years ago) my Mom had a 5g slate bottomed metaframe aquarium. Incandescent light and a bubble up HOB filter. She always had anacharis floating and there was always a good layer of mulm over a half inch or less gravel. Water level was topped off, but partial water changes were rare if at all. But all of the fish in that tank were the most healthy, beautiful fish I think I've ever seen. I probably don't have to tell you that the GPH in a bubble up HOB isn't all that much!...and with little/no partial weekly water changes, you gotta wonder, how was this miracle tank possible???
I fear you and I ,along with many many other's who have actually kept these large waste producer's will alway's disagree with your theory.(these ain't your small communtiy fish)
With large filter's,more flow, less crap finds it's way to substrate (this is key) ,there is larger media surface area, more room for mechanical media, and more of what we don't want get's trapped by said mechanical media which is much easier to remove/clean than gravel vaccuming.
I will agree that with regular large water changes ,that much DOC are removed ,but sadly,,most folk's find water changes troublesome after the new wear's off the tank, and it is the time between these water changes that fishes can be subjected to unfit condition's if their health is primary concern.
If your nitrates are result of organic waste, and level's remain low,, bewteen weekly water changes, then you have enough filtration and are performing enough dilution through water changes.
Add growing fish,large waste producing fish,over feeding fish,over stocking fish,,,and increased flow, larger surface area for mechanical media, and more biological media that larger filter's hold,, can often keep water in much better shape between water changes.
I don't touch the substrate in my planted aquariums for as you say,,the mulm that collects on the substrate is taken up by the plat's and I employ numerous critter's (snails shrimps) that also help in this regard.
My only plantless tank at this time is 55 gal holding five plecos.
tank is filtered with Aquaclear 110,HydroIV sponge filter,and aquaclear 70 powerhead with quick filter for the flow that these riverine fishes enjoy.
Twice 50 % weekly water changes are needed to keep nitrate levels at 20 ppm and pristine water that I would drink on a bet.
Filter's are just a pump in a bucket. The media inside slows the flow, to allow the crud to be trapped therein.
We don't need to slow down the flow further,we just need to keep the media clean.

Last edited by 1077; 05-02-2012 at 01:33 PM..
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:36 PM   #18
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeysDad View Post
Actually, even with large waste producers, the water purity is not aided with more filters and faster flow rates...quite the contrary. Frankly the waste might better settle into the substrate where it more slowly decomposes and feeds the food web there until some is removed with the weekly siphoning.
Detritus in a filter decomposes quickly and with the rush of water around it, quickly becomes a manure tea of dissolved organic compounds (DOCs) that pollute the water.

I know...lots of folks see any little bit of mulm on the substrate and want to get another filter or a power head or something to stir the pot so the detritus is outta sight (and outta mind). It's just silly really. I'll bet there are even some with heavily planted tanks that may spend too much time removing mulm instead of letting it naturally feed the plants.

Sometimes we need to rethink filtration/water purification. I realize that not all aquariums will be biotopes, but the more we work with nature, the more stable the established aquarium becomes. The more we do to prevent and/or remove the DOCs, the more pure the water will be. We're dependent on (sometimes fairly large) weekly water changes because we do not filter/purify water very well.

When I was a youngster (100 years ago) my Mom had a 5g slate bottomed metaframe aquarium. Incandescent light and a bubble up HOB filter. She always had anacharis floating and there was always a good layer of mulm over a half inch or less gravel. Water level was topped off, but partial water changes were rare if at all. But all of the fish in that tank were the most healthy, beautiful fish I think I've ever seen. I probably don't have to tell you that the GPH in a bubble up HOB isn't all that much!...and with little/no partial weekly water changes, you gotta wonder, how was this miracle tank possible???
Also keep in mind, this is soley for the bio load that these fish will give off. But I seem to be getting mixed ideas and suggestions. Would it be best to get a hang on the back filter for a 75gal? Purely the fishes health is what is the concern. I seem to be one of those, that the more filtration the better. I am selling the circulation fan that I have currently. Since I will no longer have that, I feel the water flow from an HOB will be less than the circulation fan (1050gph) produced, so in turn there is less flow in general. So what should I be looking at?
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Old 05-02-2012, 05:54 PM   #19
 
My point goes back to the notion that we need 4x to 10x the tank size in GPH filter flow for 'good filtration'. The flaw in the logic is that fast flow means better or more filtration. It does not. Today's high velocity power filters accelerate the decomposition of detritus in the mechanical media converting it into dissolved organic compounds... and especially in the absence of chemical filtration to adsorb/trap the DOC's, pollutes the water column more than if there was no filter at all.
It's sometimes perceived that once trapped in the filter, the detritus is just going to sit there until the filter is cleaned. Nope. It's made into almost invisible dissolved organics very quickly. Partly by decomposition, but mostly due to the eroding force of the water.
So if one doesn't see much detritus in the tank, the filter is keeping the water clear? Nope. It's just more quickly making muddy water...all that poo is still in there

If it was me, I'd do the following before adding a filter (assuming the c-530 is working well).
- Use a fine gravel or sand substrate to keep detritus/mulm on top.
- Carefully feed high quality food containing less 'pass through fillers'.
- Use Carbon and/or Purigen to adsorb dissolved organics.

But it's your tank and you can add a filter. We all have to find our own way.

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Old 05-02-2012, 06:42 PM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by AbbeysDad View Post
My point goes back to the notion that we need 4x to 10x the tank size in GPH filter flow for 'good filtration'. The flaw in the logic is that fast flow means better or more filtration. It does not. Today's high velocity power filters accelerate the decomposition of detritus in the mechanical media converting it into dissolved organic compounds... and especially in the absence of chemical filtration to adsorb/trap the DOC's, pollutes the water column more than if there was no filter at all.
It's sometimes perceived that once trapped in the filter, the detritus is just going to sit there until the filter is cleaned. Nope. It's made into almost invisible dissolved organics very quickly. Partly by decomposition, but mostly due to the eroding force of the water.
So if one doesn't see much detritus in the tank, the filter is keeping the water clear? Nope. It's just more quickly making muddy water...all that poo is still in there

If it was me, I'd do the following before adding a filter (assuming the c-530 is working well).
- Use a fine gravel or sand substrate to keep detritus/mulm on top.
- Carefully feed high quality food containing less 'pass through fillers'.
- Use Carbon and/or Purigen to adsorb dissolved organics.

But it's your tank and you can add a filter. We all have to find our own way.

I feel ya. I do have Pool Filter Sand as my substrate, so that probably helps with the mulm. Arent there fish that eat detritus? I though I saw something like that when I was browsing through Liveaquaria.
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