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Help! Ammonia Problem

5K views 48 replies 10 participants last post by  Byron 
#1 ·
I don't know what to do! i just lost two albino Cory catfishes today and now my two platies seem to be gasping for air and are on the bottom of the tank. As of right now I have 3 platies 5 neon tetras and 1 albino Cory in a 20 gallon tank The tank was cycled..I have had my tank for over 3 months now, and everything was fine.. but just yesterday two of my catfishes died, and today my platies look like they aren't doing to well. I think they might have had an ammonia poisoning because i checked my levels today and my ammonia levels were at 2ppm and everything else was zero. I did a 50% water change and used prime. Is there anything else i can do to prevent my other fishes from getting harmed?
 
#2 ·
I don't know what to do! i just lost two albino Cory catfishes today and now my two platies seem to be gasping for air and are on the bottom of the tank. As of right now I have 3 platies 5 neon tetras and 1 albino Cory in a 20 gallon tank The tank was cycled..I have had my tank for over 3 months now, and everything was fine.. but just yesterday two of my catfishes died, and today my platies look like they aren't doing to well. I think they might have had an ammonia poisoning because i checked my levels today and my ammonia levels were at 2ppm and everything else was zero. I did a 50% water change and used prime. Is there anything else i can do to prevent my other fishes from getting harmed?

If you haven't already adding live plants like anacharis would help. The plants will consume ammonia and carbon dioxide while returning oxygen.

FWIW I do not recommend Prime (or other dechlor or ammonia blocks) for ammonia. What can happen is they lock up ammonia making it safe but the ammonia test kit measures both locked and the dangerous ammonia. So you still test ammonia, add more chemicals and so on. All the while they are reducing oxygen and the fish can suffocate.

Your platies gasping for air for instance could be do to high levels of carbon dioxide.

But that's just my .02
 
#3 ·
Have you checked your tap water? I had an Amonia spike in my tap once that put my tank in emergency after a pwc.
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#10 · (Edited)
I don't know what to do! i just lost two albino Cory catfishes today and now my two platies seem to be gasping for air and are on the bottom of the tank. As of right now I have 3 platies 5 neon tetras and 1 albino Cory in a 20 gallon tank The tank was cycled..I have had my tank for over 3 months now, and everything was fine.. but just yesterday two of my catfishes died, and today my platies look like they aren't doing to well. I think they might have had an ammonia poisoning because i checked my levels today and my ammonia levels were at 2ppm and everything else was zero. I did a 50% water change and used prime. Is there anything else i can do to prevent my other fishes from getting harmed?
The live plants, even simple floating plants, will certainly help. But you need immediate help, and this means a major water change. Your tap water is zero ammonia you mention, so fine; do a 75% water change immediately if you haven't already. This is the only way to dilute ammonia. Tomorrow do another 50% water change. If ammonia still reads above zero, do another the following day until ammonia is zero.

Use a good water conditioner, one that detoxifies ammonia can't hurt in this situation.

Having live plants would be a cushion in such circumstances, as plants grab a lot of ammonia.

And be prepared for some of the fish to die, esp the corys. Corys cannot cope with ammonia above zero. The water changes will get rid of the ammonia and let's hope help the fish. But they may be too far gone, just so you know.

Byron.
 
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#14 ·
I agree with Byron that the immediate water changes are needed, and more water changes until your ammonia levels are zero. Fish cannot tolerate any levels of ammonia for any length of time without damage. You may also want to consider the addition of bacteria in a bottle to help with the cycle of this tank.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Yes. Big pwc. Lots of them every day until the levels are 0. Plants are a long term solution.

Duckweed is... well... a weed! Odds are the OP wont kill it. When it overgrows, you just yank some out and toss it or give it away.

Also, Marimo Balls have to be taken out and wrang out once a week. I use my Turkey Baster to roll it over to keep it from getting brown spots. Mine is doing well with just the proper lights, some turning, some squeezing, and some fish poop ;-)
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#12 ·
I respectifully disagree unless ammonia is extremely high. Like pegging the kit.

thriving, live plants will bring down ammonia in a matter of minutes and hours and bring them down to 0 faster than any partial water change.

Plus the plants will also suck out carbon dioxide and oxyginate the water as well. Again in a matter of minutes and hours.

Still just my .02
 
#13 ·
Personally, I would do a combo. I would do at least a 50% pwc and then toss in plants. Next day, I would do a test and do a pwc depending on how high it was.
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#15 ·
Hello Bryan:
Is this correct that “Corys cannot cope with ammonia above zero”? So they are a good indicator fish for water quality. Do cory's show a specific behavior or color when exposed to poor water conditions? Are there other fish that are good indicators of water quality?
Thanks
pop
 
#16 ·
Hmm, this confuses me a little. Would you even want to see your fish change colour and think 'hey, my waters bad.' Knowing the damage it would be causing them.
Surely the best indicator, and the only one you ever want to have to use, is the API test kit!?!
 
#19 ·
I'd have to disagree Jeff. Just on the notion of 'why take the chance'. What if your plants have reached their uptake maximum from the tank and your fish don't display typical, or any, signs of ammonia poisoning? It's somewhat unlikely but I would guarantee its happened many many times. And then what, dead fish because you 'knew best'? Is it worth it to save yourself 10 minutes a week for periodic testing?
All the knowledge possible can't replace the cold hard facts of knowing accurately the levels of ammonia in your tank. Your fish may show zero effects of 0.1 in your tank but it'll still be doing slow long term harm.
 
#20 ·
Hmmm.... I'm not entirely sure what you are disagreeing with.

It comes down to how often is often enough. I could test today and have a slow rise starting tomorrow. Is once a week enough? I waited three days... and never suggested any particular timeline for testing... just that I feel confident that my tank is stable. Everyone has their own level of comfort for this. The longer I have my tank running I may find the longer I go between tests... I honestly don't know yet. I'll be testing again on the weekend, so that puts me at 4 days. I might do ammonia tests and skip some of the others, again, I don't know yet.

As far as the plants are concerned, I never found anything about ammonia uptake limits, I suppose that doesn't mean that there isn't one. Because it is the nitrogen that they are using from the ammonium they apparently just keep sucking it up... and as much as 50 times faster than the bacteria will, depending on the plant. I think that the plant will run out of ammonium long before any upper limit on absorption is reached. Of course this means that you would have to have enough plants to sink the ammonium that your tank is generating.... over stocked and under planted is not good as the bacteria method is not as stable as the planted method. I'm at 8 types of plants with from 2 to 9 individual specimens of each type... down from 10 as two didn't work out.

Perhaps my statement, "I think that the API test is a great tool, knowing your fish is better as it will tell you that you should test to be certain." is the issue. I am not suggesting that you don't test until something appears amiss... just that being able to notice something amiss while between scheduled tests would indicate that you should test now and not wait.

This leads me to consider some testing... jars, ammonia, plants. Let's see how much they can take up.

Jeff.
 
#21 · (Edited)
There have been a couple of very serious issues raised in the last few posts since my previous. I will start with the most serious, that of relying on plants to deal with high ammonia.

Ammonia at any level above zero is harmful to all fish. This is now scientific fact, so there is no argument. Even a level as low as 0.25 ppm has been proven to cause gill damage in fish. And this damage is irreversible. At best any level of ammonia will stress the fish and weaken them internally, and down the road they usually succumb to some health issue that would not otherwise have occurred. And as far as we have evidence from careful observation, the fish die prematurely.



Ammonia will cause one or more of these symptoms:
  • reddish gills, with the gill cover usually held further out from the body;
  • clamped fins, later torn and jagged fins;
  • red streaks (blood) on the body, which is tissue damage;
  • fish gasping for air at the surface;
  • lethargy, difficultly swimming, wobbling, or often just lying on the bottom respirating faster.
During any of the above, internal damage is occurring to the brain, organs, and central nervous system. The fish begins to hemorrhage internally and externally, and eventually dies.

As you can see, some of these symptoms occur from other issues too, which is why exact diagnosis of fish disease can be tricky. Preventing disease is therefore much wiser than waiting for it to occur and then attempting to treat whatever it is. And preventing ammonia is key in this.

As I commented previously either in this or another thread, live plants do take up a considerable amount of ammonia. They use this as their prime source of nitrogen, but they also take it up as a toxin. Obviously there is some limit to how much they can take up, and I don't know what this limit is. When I discussed this issue with Tom Barr, a trained botanist whose name some of you will know from his extensive work in the area of planted tanks, his advice was that in most cases the plants, if heavily planted and fast growing, would be able to deal with most usual rises in ammonia such as in tap water at a water change or from a dead fish. But this is minimal; when we are testing levels at 1 ppm or higher we are far beyond this.

So, an immediate water change of no less than half the tank should always be performed if ammonia is determined to be above zero, and this continued daily until ammonia is zero. But the damage is already being done to the fish.

The pH is also significant. In acidic water, with a pH below 7, ammonia is changed into ammonium which is basically harmless. Plants and bacteria take this up. But in basic water (pH above 7) ammonia remains ammonia and is toxic to all life forms, be it fish, plant or bacteria, as levels increase. Most ammonia detoxifiers on the market work by changing ammonia to ammonium (in basic water) but they may have a limited effectiveness, say 24 hours or whatever. Water conditioners like Prime work this way.

Moving to pop's question on corys and other fish showing signs of ammonia poisoning. Corys have a low tolerance to ammonia before they begin showing the above signs, and usually if they do show signs they will be dead within a few weeks if not days. This is why new shipments of corys in the fish store frequently have high losses. I remember a local dealer telling me once of losing all the corys in shipment after shipment until he convinced the supplier to ship them in larger bags with only a couple fish in each. The ammonia poisoned them fast. Molly have the same intolerance. But "intolerance" is rather pointless, since any level of ammonia is harming the fish somehow, and they will not recover.

Byron.
 
#22 ·
When I discussed this issue with Tom Barr, a trained botanist whose name some of you will know from his extensive work in the area of planted tanks, his advice was that in most cases the plants, if heavily planted and fast growing, would be able to deal with most usual rises in ammonia such as in tap water at a water change or from a dead fish. But this is minimal; when we are testing levels at 1 ppm or higher we are far beyond this.

Byron.
I'm still new to all this, first to admit it so bear with me a moment.

OK, It is good to clarify that the water changes at the first sign of ammonia are paramount. Plants are a great buffer but not a cure in the case of already high ammonia level.

Assuming that a tank is live planted with a lot of plants... enough to handle normal ammonia production by some dead vegetation and fish byproducts and perhaps even a dead fish, the pH levels are reasonably stable and the tap water has no trace of ammonia what else could cause a tank to spike?

Die off of the bacteria would be a factor in a plantless tank but I can' t think of anything that would cause a spike in ammonia other than the already mentioned things in a planted tank.

So what would put us "far beyond this"?

Jeff.
 
#24 ·
I don't know what to do! i just lost two albino Cory catfishes today and now my two platies seem to be gasping for air and are on the bottom of the tank. As of right now I have 3 platies 5 neon tetras and 1 albino Cory in a 20 gallon tank The tank was cycled..I have had my tank for over 3 months now, and everything was fine.. but just yesterday two of my catfishes died, and today my platies look like they aren't doing to well. I think they might have had an ammonia poisoning because i checked my levels today and my ammonia levels were at 2ppm and everything else was zero. I did a 50% water change and used prime. Is there anything else i can do to prevent my other fishes from getting harmed?

Ok all you "water change the minute I see ammonia" people. :lol:

1) plants will consume that level of ammonia in hours while sucking out co2 and returning oxygen.

2) fish gasping for air-----Hmmmmmm could be high CO2 not letting the fish exhale CO2.

3) How does anyone here know that (after the prime treatment) the ammonia is now totally lockedup and the api test is reflecting 100% "safe" ammonia?.

If three is the case then IMHO the only thing to do is add plants. Massive water changes will serious degrade the environment and put the fish at risk. By contrast I have had rank beginners with similiar symptoms in new tank that reported the fish recovered literally in a few hours after adding anacharis. :shock:

Still just my .02
 
#25 ·
IMHO I think I'd have to go for a combination of BBs and byrons answer.

Yes the plants would suck it up, but the water change would also lower it too. And they can only work best as a combo of both- water change = less AM for the plants to take up = faster 0 level.

So why would you do anything other than both when the fish's lives are quite literally at stake?!? I'd be doing anything and everything I could for them!
 
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#26 · (Edited)
I don't think anyone is really saying "don't do this" or "don't do that" It's more an exercise of ideas between which might be the most appropriate response to a high ammonia situation if you had to pick one... and this is a personal choice based on individual's comfort levels with their particular setup and doing BOTH is an option.

Having said that, I trust that my tank is stable enough to not have a high ammonia issue in the first place BUT I know what steps I could take to fix the problem.

Oh, had to add this "3) How does anyone here know that (after the prime treatment) the ammonia is now totally lockedup and the api test is reflecting 100% "safe" ammonia?."

You don't. You have to trust that it does something. At this point it comes down to another comfort level factor with a product and it's claims.

Jeff.
 
#27 ·
'if you had to pick one'

That's my point though, you don't.....

If this was your daughter and the blue pill could save her, but so could the red, yet you were more inclined to the blue, would you only give her the blue? I think not.

Surely the same applies and a discussion over which method is better/which one youd pick is completely pointless as surely both are. Neither have negative effects as long as done at safe levels so there's only benefits to be had....
 
#38 · (Edited)
multitest, ammonia alert, Prime

There you go, I didn't know that a test kit was out there that could differentiate between ammonia and ammonium.

Jeff

I didn't either until in the one extreme emergency tank crash due to my stupidity I used prime.

My stupidity was what caused the tank crash. Not that I was stupid for using prime. (just reread and wanted to clarify) It did work as advertized using the multitest kit. But the tank went into a very deep cycle with a massive ph drop and nitrIte spike then nitrate spike finally recovering weeks later. The ammonia finally dropped down a week later 2 days after I rinsed my filter media. So I highly suspect I added some toxin the media had in it. Prior to the ammonia dropping down it totally pegged the api test kit for 8ppm++++++++. Wierdist darkest color I have ever seen on the ammonia test kit. Meanwhile the multitest kit free ammonia was the lowest level like .25ppm and the totall pegged that kit at 5ppm++++++. If I had kept adding prime based solely on the api test kit I would have killed everything in the tank.

See:
Seachem. MultiTest: Ammonia

link above said:
This kit measures total (NH3 and NH4+) and free ammonia (NH3 only) down to less than 0.05 mg/L and is virtually interference free in marine and fresh water. Free ammonia is the toxic form of ammonia (vs. ionized Ammonia NH4+ which is non-toxic) and thus it is much more important to keep an eye on the level of free ammonia in your system. This kit is based on the same gas exchange technology that is used in the Ammonia Alert™ and thus is the only kit on the market that can read levels of free ammonia while using ammonia removal products such as Prime®, Safe™, AmGuard™ and any similar competing products. The other kits (salicylate or Nessler based) determine the total ammonia by raising the pH of the test solution to 12 or greater. At this high pH all ammonia removal products will breakdown and rerelease the ammonia, thus giving you a false ammonia reading.
And that is from the makers of Prime.

My concern to the OP is the health of the fish.

my .02
 
#30 ·
All of this back and forth about plants and ammonia is fine, but some of you have forgotten the initial issue. The OP's fish are dying from ammonia poisoning. Tossing a bunch of plants in the tank is not going to save them. First, he/she probably doesn't have the plants and has to go and buy them (hopefully) from a fish store. Second, the fish are dying now, they are not going to sit there waiting for relief from a bunch of stem plants.

Please be sensible. The OP asked for help in an emergency. The answer is not to speculate on plants' abilities and how long.

There is absolutely no other option for this situation except massive water changes to get the ammonia to zero now. The fish will die otherwise.

As for Prime doing what they claim it does, with all the experience world-wide on using this I think we can safely assume it does what it claims or we would all have heard differently long before now.
 
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#31 ·
Thanks for all the comments.. I am new to this, so everything that I read was pretty confusing. I did a 75% water change yesterday and did a 50% water change today because the ammonia was still testing at 2ppm. I didn't put prime in this water change. and i did add live plants just for long term sakes... I have already lost four fishes due to this. The other fishes seem to be fine, but I know that they are affected in some sort of way. I was wondering what are ways to prevent this from happening again. While reading some of the comments, one said that i should get a bottle of bacteria... Is that necessary? And also another comment said that they use sand as a substrate. While changing my water, I use a gravel vaccum, and a lot of the times there is a lot of left over food that is stuck on the bottom, and I feel like this is a huge cause in why i can't maintain the ammonia. is it a good idea to use sand, and if so how would I go about it with changing my gravel to sand without killing the bacteria?
 
#32 ·
With sand,or gravel,if you are seeing a bunch of food on the bottom as you report,,this is a sign that your feeding too much food, and deceasing the amount of food's offered,and frequency, will help with the ammonia problem.;-)
 
#35 ·
I suggest clearing up the ammonia first, before thinking of changing substrates.

Ammonia is always present; fish expel it with every breath they take. without going into the science, the act of respiration in the fish's gills causes ammonia to be expelled along with CO2, so it is constantly being added to the water. We use live plants to take it up, and bacteria will establish to use it as their food source. The latter takes time in a new tank.

Ammonia also occurs from any decaying organic matter, as 1077 mentioned about your overfeeding. Feed sparingly, once a day, very little. Fish should always appear hungry, so don't think they are starving, they are not. Of course, they are not likely eating at all now, so don't add any food until this is resolved.

Continue with daily water changes. Why aren't you using Prime? If you have it, use it as it will help. If you don't have it, any conditioner that says it will detoxify ammonia will also be as good.

Do you have a pH test kit, and if yes, what is the pH of your tank water? I'm assuming it is basic (above 7).

Byron.
 
#41 ·
Putting non-treated water containing chlorine and or chloramine into a new tank (3months is still new) will certainly damage any bacteria withing the filter/substrate.
I recently read it's vice versal also in that the bacteria actually break down the chloramines.
So much so that water companies have to flush out the pipes because of the nitrates being generated by bacterialbreaking down chloramines.
All I do is just top off (5%max) evaporative water plus an initial 1 week of no fish with thriving plants. I never see any signs of stress on the fish. In 1/2 cities in the use including my current location that does use chloramines.
This is really two very different things you two are mentioning.

Nilet is basically correct although it goes farther than this. If you do a water change of significant volume (as opposed to topping-up) and the water contains chlorine (with or without chloramine) the fish may very well die within minutes. The chlorine burns their gills. Bacteria will be killed too, depending upon the volume, but the far more urgent issue is the fish. Top-up water is unlikely to cause trouble since the volume is so small and it quickly dissipates.

As for the bacteria in the water lines, that is very different issue. Chlorine dissipates out of water if it is agitated, and water moving through the water lines does this so the chlorine lessens and lessens the farther the water travels. Chloramine is now added by many municipalities as a means of countering this, since chloramine does not dissipate out. As to what degree any bacteria may break down chloramine, I don't know, but that is not a concern for aquarists provided a suitable dechlorinator (that also handles chloramine) is used at water changes.

Byron.
 
#42 ·
This is really two very different things you two are mentioning.

Nilet is basically correct although it goes farther than this. If you do a water change of significant volume (as opposed to topping-up) and the water contains chlorine (with or without chloramine) the fish may very well die within minutes. The chlorine burns their gills. Bacteria will be killed too, depending upon the volume, but the far more urgent issue is the fish. Top-up water is unlikely to cause trouble since the volume is so small and it quickly dissipates.

As for the bacteria in the water lines, that is very different issue. Chlorine dissipates out of water if it is agitated, and water moving through the water lines does this so the chlorine lessens and lessens the farther the water travels. Chloramine is now added by many municipalities as a means of countering this, since chloramine does not dissipate out. As to what degree any bacteria may break down chloramine, I don't know, but that is not a concern for aquarists provided a suitable dechlorinator (that also handles chloramine) is used at water changes.

Byron.
Agree. The small amount of top off is the key.

Doing a google search:

"chloramine bacterial breakdown tap water"





http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-06262006-211548/unrestricted/AZ_Thesis.pdf

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-06262006-211548/unrestricted/AZ_Thesis.pdf said:
Several utilities that have witnessed nitrification in their systems and integrated measures
to correct problems and prevent future growth have shared their experiences. When the Tampa
Bay Water Authority switched to chloramines in 2002 in order to comply with the D/DBPR, they
experienced myriad water quality problems related to biological growth in the system (Powell,
2004). In an effort to understand and remediate these issues, the Authority implemented an
extensive water quality-monitoring program and initiated changes to the management of the
distribution system. Operations and maintenance changes included drawing down storage tanks
at least 50% on a daily basis and reconfiguring tanks to “first in-first out” to facilitate better
mixing, adding booster chlorination to tanks to recombine excess ammonia and increase
disinfectant residual levels, routine unidirectional flushing of pipelines, and replacement of
galvanized pipe lines. Despite the significant expenditure of money and increase in staff
associated with implementing this program, biological water quality did not substantially
improve as observed through HPC, coliform and mycobacteria levels, chemical indicators of
nitrification, and customer odor complaints (Powell, 2004). The Metropolitan Water District of
Southern California reported similar problems with nitrification, particularly in reservoirs
throughout their system, after switching from free chlorine to chloramines (Wolfe et al., 1988;
Wolfe et al., 1990). When episodes were first observed, they responded by removing the
affected reservoirs from service and applying breakpoint chlorination.

While I didn't do an indeapth reading it does appear that bacteria do interact with chloramines and things are not just chloramines will remain in tap water and by extension our tanks forever.

but then all I know is I have done this for decades and my current tap water has chloramine with not even a hint of stress to the fish.

but as you stated you do not fill a tank and just drop the fish in. I heavily plant it, wait a week, add 1 fish, then a week later add more fish. And only top off. With straight untreated tap water.

if the aerobic bacteria are 100% killed by that, the plants consume the resulting ammonia and carbon dioxide and retrun oxygen. So no stress to fish.

If the bacteria is only aver small amount killed off then that is even better.

My thoughts are the perhaps the bacteria being killed are also breaking down the chloramines.

I guess in the water distribution systems the resulting ammonia is creating some problems.


my .02
 
#43 ·
hello:
your assessment above is quite harsh but sadly it is true. If a fish exhibits a specific behavior that indicates poor water quality I want to recognize these signs.
As far as api test kit goes yesterday is the first time I have tested for ammonia in my life and to my surprise the aquarium showed 0 ppm ammonia, I truly thought I would test a least .25 ppm. This leaves me very concerned with api testing bein viable and correct.

pop
 
#44 ·
hello:
your assessment above is quite harsh but sadly it is true. If a fish exhibits a specific behavior that indicates poor water quality I want to recognize these signs.
As far as api test kit goes yesterday is the first time I have tested for ammonia in my life and to my surprise the aquarium showed 0 ppm ammonia, I truly thought I would test a least .25 ppm. This leaves me very concerned with api testing bein viable and correct.

pop
While it is entirely possible the 0 reading is incorrect, the usual "error" is high not low.

IMHO if you have a 0 reading and fish are still showing stress (slow moving, rapid breathing, etc) then you have other problems not an ammonia problem.

But that's just my .02
 
#46 ·
Hello Byron:
I have been gone for about two weeks and left two week long feeders in the tank and have not changed the water for about three weeks.

According to moderators I did not cycle the used tank I just filled it up with water and let it go at that. No live plants only plastic, over feed the 11 fish in the 55 gal aquarium and many other cardinal sins according to what I have read here at this site. I don’t experience many fish deaths nor do they appear to be stressed.

I see myself as muddling toward some semblance of tropical fish keeping. In this muddling process I have done everything wrong as laid down by those from the house of knowledge. It’s only natural for a muddled fish keeper to expect the worst of the gloom and doom predictions.

Pop
 
#47 ·
Hello Byron:
I have been gone for about two weeks and left two week long feeders in the tank and have not changed the water for about three weeks.

According to moderators I did not cycle the used tank I just filled it up with water and let it go at that. No live plants only plastic, over feed the 11 fish in the 55 gal aquarium and many other cardinal sins according to what I have read here at this site. I don’t experience many fish deaths nor do they appear to be stressed.

I see myself as muddling toward some semblance of tropical fish keeping. In this muddling process I have done everything wrong as laid down by those from the house of knowledge. It’s only natural for a muddled fish keeper to expect the worst of the gloom and doom predictions.

Pop

Pink Floyd,,"Their lip's move ,but we can't hear what they say"
Speak's also of the fishes, and those who must find their own way.
 
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