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This is a discussion on Hazy Water within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Originally Posted by unprejudice I got to thinking. I bought brain shrimp (frozen), Shrimp pellets, and alge chips for some fish I was forgetting ...

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Old 07-21-2010, 09:16 PM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by unprejudice View Post
I got to thinking. I bought brain shrimp (frozen), Shrimp pellets, and alge chips for some fish I was forgetting about that needed there own kinda food, and well the adding of the catfish and two new decore items. other then that its all the same..
This "large" catfish may well have produced a mini-cycle issue. Higher ammonia. And all of this could have caused a bacteria bloom. If this catfish is a plecostomus as I'm suspecting, they produce a lot of waste in more than one way. Some some thoughts. As long as your ammonia and nitrite are down to normal (zero) things are improving.
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:18 PM   #12
 
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Thanks Bryon for the salt update. Seeing what you told me with the deeper research I've done after the first time you responded about the salt you are right. I will faze the salt all the way out over the next month of water changes. So question...With the salt being gone, I've always heard never ever do more then a 15% water change at a time. If over the next few days if the water doesnt get clear, what about doing a 40-50% water change and clean my gravel really good. Adding more water and prime on the refill of coruse. Do you think my fish will be okay? Since my tank has been running I've only lost two of my sarpea tetra and that was due to aggression I since passed them on to my friends tank removing them from mine all together. I just wish my water was right, The nitrates and nitrites are high and arnt comming down enough. I want my fish to be healthy and live and get big. The cleaner my water is the faster they grow and stuff. The people at the pet stores are no help to me. Pet stores like Petsmart all are what I like to call cat and dog people. You might run accross the employ that has a tank at there house and knows a little but blah, I've done nothing but spend 20 here 40 here on try this and see if it helps kinda stuff.
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:21 PM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by Byron View Post
This "large" catfish may well have produced a mini-cycle issue. Higher ammonia. And all of this could have caused a bacteria bloom. If this catfish is a plecostomus as I'm suspecting, they produce a lot of waste in more than one way. Some some thoughts. As long as your ammonia and nitrite are down to normal (zero) things are improving.
See but there not, they both are reading "stressfull to deadly" but the fish seem to be doing well. I didn't think about the catfish being so dirty untill after I got home today and it was to late. My Ammonia levels are .1 witch I fought for almost 2 weeks to get it mostly gone. its practilyl non existant in my tank (thank goodness)
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:51 PM   #14
 
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See but there not, they both are reading "stressfull to deadly" but the fish seem to be doing well. I didn't think about the catfish being so dirty untill after I got home today and it was to late. My Ammonia levels are .1 witch I fought for almost 2 weeks to get it mostly gone. its practilyl non existant in my tank (thank goodness)
If you are using Prime (was this conditioner mentioned, sorry, so may threads I get mixed up sometimes) it detoxifies ammonia and nitrite but they will still show in tests. Which is why I recommend tests the morning following the water change, to get a more accurate picture of the true state. Ammonia at .1 is OK though still should find the source. Was tap water eliminated (tested on its own for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate)? And yes, fish behaviour is a great guide. Both ammonia and nitrite would cause fish to breathe more rapidly than normal, in attempts to get more oxygen, and probably they would be hanging at the surface. Ammonia affects the gills, nitrite prevents the blood from carrying oxygen.
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Old 07-21-2010, 10:08 PM   #15
 
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Thanks Bryon for the salt update. Seeing what you told me with the deeper research I've done after the first time you responded about the salt you are right. I will faze the salt all the way out over the next month of water changes. So question...With the salt being gone, I've always heard never ever do more then a 15% water change at a time. If over the next few days if the water doesnt get clear, what about doing a 40-50% water change and clean my gravel really good. Adding more water and prime on the refill of coruse. Do you think my fish will be okay? Since my tank has been running I've only lost two of my sarpea tetra and that was due to aggression I since passed them on to my friends tank removing them from mine all together. I just wish my water was right, The nitrates and nitrites are high and arnt comming down enough. I want my fish to be healthy and live and get big. The cleaner my water is the faster they grow and stuff. The people at the pet stores are no help to me. Pet stores like Petsmart all are what I like to call cat and dog people. You might run accross the employ that has a tank at there house and knows a little but blah, I've done nothing but spend 20 here 40 here on try this and see if it helps kinda stuff.
High (depending what that means in a number) nitrates is not so critical; high nitrite is. I mentioned signs in the last post. Nitrate we handle with live plants and/or water changes regularly.

I don't know where they dream up this nonsense. Water changes are the most beneficial thing you can do in an aquarium--assuming things are OK to start with. Fish live in water that is constantly changing, and if they don't like where they are they can swim elsewhere. In the aquarium the only way to replicate this even marginally is through a water change. If you could do a 90% water change every day for ever, your fish would love it. But, we mostly can't so once weekly will suffice.

The volume depends upon the fish (type, size) and the tank size. The more fish or larger the fish, the more water needs changing, up to 70% once a week (unless you are way overstocked, then more often). But we're talking normal stocking. Plants do a great filtering job, and in planted tanks fewer (if any) water changes are needed--again provided the stocking is in balance, what Diana Walstad calls "moderate." I have more fish than that, so I change 50% on all my tanks every week, yet they are heavily planted (I think). See photos under my "Aquariums."

The only time a water change is or could be detrimental is if the tank is way overdue and a large change is made. As the tank runs, the water acidifies and the pH drops. The hardness partly buffers this, but at some point may give out. Nitrates also rise. If the pH is below 7 (acidic) the ammonia produced by the fish automatically becomes ammonium which is basically harmless. Also, as the pH drops, the bacteria die off; nitrosomonas bacteria are said to stop multiplying around 6.4, and may actually die at 6 or lower. But the ammonium saves the fish for the moment. If a massive water change is then done to "fix" this, and the tap water happens to be basic (pH above 7) and the result is that the water in the tank then rises above 7, the ammonium all changes into ammonia. Plus the bacteria have stopped multiplying or have died, and there is insufficient to handle the ammonia. Result, stressed and probably dead fish very fast.

Are you using test strips or liquid kits? The former are not always reliable. Again, the fish are a good guide if something is wrong. If you think nitrite is above .25 ppm, do a 50% partial water change with Prime. Take the test next day, as you will still read it given Prime's method of detoxifying. Seachem told me Prime will detoxify for 24 hours, possibly 48 but not beyond.

As for the cloudiness, as I mentioned it is usually harmless, and if it is a bacterial bloom more water changes will worsen it. Let the ammonia/nitrite and fish behaviour be your guide to water changes beyond the normal once a week. Siphon the bottom to remove excess waste and that will release more ammonia and CO2 as it is broken down by bacteria.
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:35 AM   #16
 
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Once again, Byron has given you a great bit of knowledge, just one more thing I picked up upon...if someone else has already spoken about it, please forgive me, i'm still waking up!

The carbon you have inserted in your cansiter filter should be removed. Carbon, while used for "polishing" water and mainly removing medication after a tank has been treated for a disease, does not belong in a planted tank.

Carbon removes all of the natural nutrients that can be found in your tap water that are necessary for your plants to grow. As Byron mentioned, there are 17 nutrients plants need, some of which come from the water table. Carbon removes these nutrients, I suggest you remove the carbon from your canister filter, as it will be dead in a few short weeks anyways.

~ Johnny
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:12 AM   #17
 
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One thing that hasn't been touched upon yet is the stockibg list.3 Clown loaches,3 Bala Sharks,2 Dinosaur Birchir,1-7"Upside down Catfish,2 Blood Parrots,6 Gouramis,Plecostomous,7 Skirt Tetras.55 gal tank.
This tank is overstocked with large fish with high bioloads and is probably the cause of the problems.
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:09 PM   #18
 
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One thing that hasn't been touched upon yet is the stockibg list.3 Clown loaches,3 Bala Sharks,2 Dinosaur Birchir,1-7"Upside down Catfish,2 Blood Parrots,6 Gouramis,Plecostomous,7 Skirt Tetras.55 gal tank.
This tank is overstocked with large fish with high bioloads and is probably the cause of the problems.
Quite true I'm afraid. And there are fish in this 55g that will easily outgrow thetank (which means stunted fish) and are not compatible. Check out the various profiles for details, most of these are there.
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:06 PM   #19
 
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I do know that some or even most of the fish I have in here right now will outgrow my tank but there is a store up the street that will buy the grown fish. I know I need to rid some of the fish from this tank but im so unsure on what ones and how many I should remove from the tank. I did look at the area that had what you could put in a tank together but im still at a lost. i want to use the fish I have in some way.
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Old 07-22-2010, 07:49 PM   #20
 
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I'll offer some suggestions as you've asked. First, the list from earlier on:

Quote:
Tank inhabitants: 5-7 Long-Fin Skirt Tetra, 3 Clown Loaches, 3 Bala Sharks, 3 Gold Groumie, 3 Silver Groumie, 2 Blood Fin Parrot fish, 1 7" Upside Down Catfish, 1 Rainbow Shark, 2 dinosore something another (looks like a oversized worm), 1 Pacostimous
Clown loaches are highly social fish that must be kept in a group, at least 5-6. Given that they grow to 12 -18 inches, with aquarium fish usually 8-12 inches, this means nothing less than a 6-foot tank for the group. And if you read our profile there is a comment about the rapid growth of this fish from 2 to 5 inches and its need for a large tank right from day one. On this, allow me to digress a moment.

Fish, unlike humans, grow all their lives. As they grow in size physically, the internal organs grow and develop. The tank size during all of this period is critical not only from the perspective of physical space but water quality. Fish release waste and ammonia as we know, and also pheromones into the water. Bacteria help to break down waste and plants and bacteria (hopefully) handle the ammonia, but no filtering can deal with pheromones, only large volumes of water and regular water changes. If you were to perform a major water change of 50+% more than once a week on your 55g, then the clown loaches might develop properly for a time. However, other factors enter into this too, like the physical space, hiding places, social interaction, other fish in the tank, etc. I am not qualified to pinpoint at what stage they will outgrow their present tank, besides which I don't know how large or how old they are now. The minimum tank sizes given in our profiles are not dreamed up, they are the consensus of qualified ichthyologists and biologists who work with these fish sometimes life-long. Enough on that.

Fish stunting occurs when the internal organs do not develop properly due to inadequate water space. It weakens the immune system, causes stress (which also weakens the immune system), making the fish more susceptible to parasites, pathogens, bacteria and protozoan infestations. Having insufficient numbers in the group also contributes to these problems, in addition to affecting the fish's behaviour. The other week I posted a link to a new scientific study on shoaling fish that has now scientifically determined that insufficient group size leads to aggressionn disorders and disease. What many of us have been saying all along now has science behind it. Here's a link if you're interested and missed it earlier:
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...m_content=html

Bala Sharks: Basically same comments as for clown loaches. Our profile mentions groups of less than 5-6 resulting in heightened aggression to the point of death of subordinate fish in the group, and possible aggressio to other fish in frustration. And while you may not see evidence of this now, the fish's instincts are there and it can be set off at any time.

Gourami: This might work in a 55g, though squabbles can erupt leading to death of subordinate fish. Inga has a thread on her predicaments with 5 or 6 (originally) gourami in a 55g, that lesson is hard learned. Tankmates must be carefully chosen, and bala sharks are far too active for gourami.

Rainbow Shark: Good "shark" for a 55g provided he has no other bottom fish that resemble him; here again the bala sharks are trouble. Clown loaches would work except the tank isn't large enough for them. Check out "Compatibility" in our profile.

Plecostomus: the common pleco attains 18 inches and needs a much larger tank. This may be one of the smaller species, some max out at 4-5 inches and do quite well with other fish. Can't say more without knowing the species.

Upside down catfish: these are peaceful, would probably manage with the Rainbow (and Clowns in more space). The max size for this species Synodontis nigriventris is 4 inches; are you sure this is what you have if it is 7 inches?

That's the bottom fish. Except for the worm-thing. Perhaps a dinosaur eel (Bichir)? These are nocturnal and predatory and should not be kept with fish less than 3-4 inches. They can grow longer than 3 feet depending upon species, but presumably you have a Senegal Bichir which attains 20 inches.

The last fish presumably is the parrot cichlid. These hybrid fish reach up to 8 inches, and although peaceful and shy they can be territorial. Tankmates should not be overly active or boisterous. These fish have deformities and are injected with dyes; there are boycotts against them.
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