02-12-2010, 03:07 PM
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well i have never really added conditioner to my tanks here. everyone fish wise in this area said it is not necessary with our water. ive been in this area for 2 years with tanks and no problems. but at this point ill try anything, thanks for the help guys :)
02-13-2010, 10:53 AM
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It often helps us if we know more details. You have quite a list of fish although I gather they are in different tanks as yo have several listed. What size tank is this, and what are the fish in it (species and number of each)? And is any other chemical stuff going in this tank (fertilizer, salt, water this or that...)?
02-13-2010, 12:07 PM
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this is in a 55 gal
In this tank (yes I know its horrible but it worked for over a year)
3 Tiger Barbs
2 Serpae Tetras
2 YoYo Loaches
2 Clown Loaches
1 Redtailed Shark
1 Rainbow Shark
1 Bala Shark
1 Chinease Algea eater
1 Ghost Shrimp
The bacteria built up was sufficient to keep up with the waste, I do a 20% water change once a week, and top off the tank once a week and this has always been sufficent to keep the nitrates near 0. I knew that rainbow sharks and red tailed sharks could not have another of their own kind in the same tank, but I did not realise that they shouldn't be with each other either. However they are both currently about 4 inches, and I have never had a problem with them. I know that Serpae, Tiger barbs, and Clown loaches should be kept in schools of 5 or more to keep down aggression (or loniliness in case of the clown loaches) however on doing research I found that the barbs, tetras and loaches would school together just fine without any issues, and After a little over a year of watching it, I found this to be true, and thus there have never been any aggression issues in this tank) The YoYo loaches also were fine because they would school and play with the sharks.
So, Strange tank stocking aside..
I used the standard Liquid fertalized that I have been using for months, same dose, same time of the week. The last fish to be added were the serpae tetras and clown loaches, over two months ago ( I can't remember when exactly, just that it was before Dec)
Here is what happend
Mon: the nitrates were a little high ( <40) which is normal as monday is my WC day.
Tue: all levels were 0
Wed: Added new plants
Thur: Found dead Pleco in the afternoon had been dead less then a day. Found dead clown loach had been dead longer as it had began to be eatin/deteriorate. Amonia was around .25 NO2 & NO3 both @ 0 Second Clown loach not looking too hot, but have no tanks I could put him in due to incompatable fish mates, or same water quality(plus didnt want to risk hurting another tank)
Fri: Second Clown loach dead ( only a few hours dead) Ammonia was somewhere between .25 and .5 but closer to .25 I think (those two are hard to tell for me) Also the pH had risen since monday from 7.6 (tested on high and low liquid testers) to 8.0 I have no idea why this is, but I do know that the is pretty high for clown loaches ( though my LFS insists that this should not have been two high for them)
I tested all water samples twice, and keep a record in a log book for each tank. Fri I also brought in a water sample and had it tested at the LFS with the same results as my home test. I bought some stuff to bring the pH down as well as some water conditioner. I very rarely use water conditioner here. No one I know has ever had a problem with the local tap water (which out of my faucett tests 0's and a pH of 7.6)
My LFS said that perhaps the clown loaches were not doing as well as they looked to be all this time and finally died, and the pleco died at the same time by coiencedence. This answer does not, however satisfy me. If it was just one flish, or just the clown loaches maybe.... I dunno
As of last night all the other fish seem to be acting normal and not having any problems. today I plan on doing a light gravel vac and maybe another 20% water change.
I hope that is enough information if you need anything else just ask :)
Last edited by cbirk; 02-13-2010 at 12:14 PM..
Reason: was supose to say LESS then 40 on nitrates
02-13-2010, 12:53 PM
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I am going to make a couple of general observations; please understand that I am, as is everyone else who has so far responded to this thread, trying to help you resolve an obvious problem. So if what I say is direct, please accept it as constructive help based upon my 15+ years experience and research.
First, although it may "appear" OK, your combination of fish is not OK. I would even go so far as to guarantee you are going to have more trouble with some of these fish. First, fish that live in shoals in nature must be in a suitably-sized group to be less stressed [more on that momentarily]. Second, fish that are by their very nature territorial/aggressive do not change; that aggression may be diminished or seem non-existent due to the fish being under stress itself from its tankmates, insufficient numbers of its own species, whatever, or sometimes it worsens because of these conditions. But the fish was created that way, and none of us are going to alter its biological dependencies, whatever your store may have told you. Your serpae tetras and tiger barbs each need a group of at least 8 or 9 to curb their natural aggression to each other, let alone other fish.
"Stress" can be caused by many things; it always has a detrimental effect on the fish's health. It is fact that stress affects the immune system, and fish under stress can become more prone to various diseases, parasites, nutritional issues, etc. Also, this sometimes takes months to show itself. Example, fish that are stressed by ammonia or nitrite levels in new tanks sometimes "appear" to live through it; but 5 months from now they may "suddenly" die. The reason can be traced back to the internal detrimental effect of that ammonia or nitrite. This is difficult for most of us to fully comprehend, but one thing we do know: stress causes health problems, whether now or later.
Water conditioner: in North America it is rare indeed for municipal water supplies to not use chlorine, some use chloramine; the level may be minimal now, to the point that 20% water changes once a week won't hurt the fish. But the chlorine may suddenly be increased [I have had this happen years ago] and then its too late. Or the effect of the minimal chlorine causes stress which brings on internal health issues not noticeable now, as I've already explained. If you use a municipal water source, I would always use a good conditioner with water changes.
pH adjusting chemicals should never be used in a tank with live fish. These chemicals are stressful to almost all fish, some more than others; loaches are sensitive fish. The pH of the water is what it is for a reason, usually due to the carbonate hardness (KH). This buffers the water, preventing pH swings; using chemicals to lower the pH will cause the pH to fall, then the buffers bring it back; the resulting fluctuation is worse stress on the fish than leaving it alone even if not within the preferred range. I won't go more into this now, as this post will be long enough as it is. But there is probably something calcareous in your aquarium that is raising the pH; as iamntbatman said earlier, pH normally falls in an aquarium. Rock, gravel that is calcareous (leeches calcium and/or magnesium) will raise pH.
Fertilizer: what specific fertilizer? Most contain trace minerals, iron, copper, nickel. These are heavy metals, and all heavy metals are very toxic to fish and plants if the level rises above the minimum required for plant nutrients. This is why overdosing is so dangerous. I realize you said you have used it for a while, but these metals can build up, particularly as you are not using a water conditioner (most detoxify heavy metals to some extent) plus there could be trace minerals in your water which is adding more. I'm not saying this is the culprit, it is just another factor to be investigated.
Clown loaches are sensitive fish, and I'm not surprised to see they are among the first to die. The cause is probably connected to something above, maybe several things combined.
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