Fishless Cycle - no change 14 days - Page 3
Tropical Fish

Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources » Freshwater Fish and Aquariums » Beginner Freshwater Aquarium » Fishless Cycle - no change 14 days

Fishless Cycle - no change 14 days

This is a discussion on Fishless Cycle - no change 14 days within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Originally Posted by AbbeysDad In addition to Tetra SafeStart there's Dr. Tim's One and Only, Seachem Stability, API Quick Start... I know the first ...

Check out these freshwater fish profiles
Dwarf Gourami
Dwarf Gourami
Checkerboard Cichlid
Checkerboard Cichlid
Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools vBmenu Seperating Image Search this Thread vBmenu Seperating Image
Fishless Cycle - no change 14 days
Old 02-21-2013, 08:03 AM   #21
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeysDad View Post
In addition to Tetra SafeStart there's Dr. Tim's One and Only, Seachem Stability, API Quick Start...

I know the first working one was Bio-Spira, and it was invented by Dr. Tim. Then Tetra SafeStart was basically a re-branded Bio-Spira.

Since "One and Only" is also by Dr. Tim, I believe it is just a different name for the same product.

I have heard SeaChem Stability and API Quick Start, although I can't confirm if they really work. If they indeed can permanently cycle a fish tank, maybe they too are just rebranded Bio-spira?
FishlessCycle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2013, 04:33 AM   #22
 
Hallyx's Avatar
 
Seachem Stability, Nutrafin Cycle and API Quickstart and several others of the older generation "bacteria-in-a-bottle" are composd primarilly of heterotrophic bacteria which multiply quickly but do not convert ammonia reliably.

Autotrophic bacteria which convert ammonia to nitrite (Nitrosomonas), then nitrite to nitrate (Nitrospira) produce the nitrogen cycle we're trying to achieve. They require oxygen, a minumum temperature, CO2 and some kind of nitrogen food, namely ammonia.

If you're interested in understanding more, a good place to start is this article by professional aquarist, Carl Strohmeyer. It's a little dated, but explicates the fundamantals.

Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle and Cycling. Methods for Ammonia, Nitrite Removal.

Sometime in the early 90's (if I remember correctly), Timothy Hovanec recieved his doctorate by identifying the bacteria responsible for the nitrogen cycle. Dr. Hovanec then developed the first autotrophic bacteria able to be stored and shipped--Biospira. Within the last 6 (?) years, Dr. tim sold his process to Tetra and developed an improved version--- Dr. Tim's One-and-Only--- which he markets personally along with others in his aquarium line. As far as I can determine, this is the only nitrifying bacteria product which is shipped from his factory chilled and insulated for freshness.

Besides Dr Tim's and Tetra, other products off the top of my head that containd nitrisomonas and nitrospira are ATM Colony, MicrobeLift NiteOut II and TCM Smartstart. There may well be others; this is an expanding market. The reasons are two-fold.

First: as we see by the plethora of "cycling" threads, nobody wants to wait two months for their tank to cycle and become safe for any level of stocking.

Second: Even keepers with a clean, healthy tank, full of live nitrifying bacteria are sometimes loath to risk spreading disease to or from even their own tanks.

Now, I realize that the planted tank keepers will join in with their methodology of maintaining live, growing plants to remove ammonia from their tanks. I admire their skill, knowledge, talent and patience. I acknowlege that this may even be a superior way to achieve a safe healthy setup. But this is not "cycling" as we understand the term to mean the method of removing toxins through the use of autotrophic bacteria ---the nitrogen cycle.

Last edited by Hallyx; 02-23-2013 at 04:45 AM..
Hallyx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Hallyx For This Useful Post:
sparkyjoe (02-23-2013)
Old 02-23-2013, 07:02 AM   #23
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallyx View Post
Seachem Stability, Nutrafin Cycle and API Quickstart and several others of the older generation "bacteria-in-a-bottle" are composd primarilly of heterotrophic bacteria which multiply quickly but do not convert ammonia reliably.
"Older generation?"

Chalfont, PA, December 1, 2011 -- Mars Fishcare, North America is excited to introduce QUICK START™ to the API® family of water treatments. QUICK START is a breakthrough in the aquatics industry; allowing for the safe and immediate introduction of fish to the aquarium by immediately starting the biological filter. Containing live nitrifying bacteria with a non-refrigerated shelf life of 2.5 years, the all natural QUICK START™ limits toxic ammonia and nitrite which helps prevent fish loss.

Seachem spent 10 years developing and fine tuning the bacteria strains in Stability.
Dr. Tim has done very good work, but 'one and only' is no longer the one and only bottled bacteria.
AbbeysDad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2013, 07:26 AM   #24
JDM
 
JDM's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallyx View Post
Now, I realize that the planted tank keepers will join in with their methodology of maintaining live, growing plants to remove ammonia from their tanks. I admire their skill, knowledge, talent and patience. I acknowlege that this may even be a superior way to achieve a safe healthy setup. But this is not "cycling" as we understand the term to mean the method of removing toxins through the use of autotrophic bacteria ---the nitrogen cycle.
There's no real methodology or patience involved, nor any real talent or skill, not like there is in cycling. The only thing different than a starter kit setup is the light. Water, plants (maybe 1 plant per gallon as a guide), then fish. Superior? Maybe. Easier and quicker? Definitely.

The tank still cycles in the background but the tank no longer needs this cycle. There still are the tell tale spikes but they are smaller and can go unnoticed. Too few plants or too many fish added at once and they are more pronounced.

Jeff.
JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2013, 07:33 AM   #25
 
Hallyx's Avatar
 
It once was was the only one before it was sold to Tetra. It is still the only nitrosomonas/nitrospira combo available with freshness assured. There are others also available with long enough shelf-lives to make a viable commercial product.

I remain skeptical of products that make vague claims of immediate stocking, starting the biofilter or some other advantage, without listing the so-called nitrifying bacteria that they use (and don't quibble me corporate secrets).

That blurb was not about Stability, although Carl Strohmeyer speaks highly of it. A 2.5 year shelf-life is not likely for live autotrophic bacteria. If it were, products of this caliber would have been in common use decades ago.

Those products that I listed, as well as others I'm sure, claim (one must assume truthfully) they contain those specific bacteria in which we are interested for cycling.

I'm convinced that the slow acceptance of these "new" autotrophic products is because of the hit-or-miss nature of the ineffective products of the past.
Hallyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2013, 08:28 AM   #26
 
I thought Tetra renamed the product into Tetra SafeStart. It is the same thing from Dr. Tim.

For a long time, I thought Tetra SafeStart was the only thing actually works.

Yes, many people still don't believe in a bottled bacteria because many old products didn't work for permanent cycle.

Tetra SafeStart worked for most of the people who tried. I have seen a poll somewhere years ago. Majority of people who tried it had good results. I tried it myself too and it really worked. I can't say the same for Stability. Because I don't have conformation on the case where it actually worked.

Can someone come forward and say Stability worked for him/her?
We need permanent cycle, not just some temporary solution where the product has to be used repeatedly in order to have the tank stay cycled.
FishlessCycle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2013, 04:47 PM   #27
 
Hallyx's Avatar
 
Jeff, I am delighted that you find it easy to grow and maintain plants. But the fact remains that the knowledge and skillset necessary to keep an "underwater garden" is considerably more involved and complex than performing a simple nitrogen cycle over a few weeks. There are a plethora of threads and columns discussing techniques and advising newcomers, inculcating them with the lore and traditions of the planted tank. Cycling is usually a brief (6 to 8 week) simple procedure which can be executed with little understanding of the principles involved.

Plant maintenance alone is an ongoing procedure requiring perhaps hours per week. This, for me, is and was enough to discourage any further interest in running a planted tank. Once a cycle is complete, a weekly water change is all that's necessary.

A major factor in running a planted tank is having enough interest in plants to do the requisite research and study to develop the skill and knowledge to be successful. I am not alone in lacking this interest. I know enough about it to appreciate the complexity of the endeavor and the level of talent required to be successful. I greatly admire all gardeners, aquatic or terrestrial. But, if it were required that I keep a planted aquarium in order to keep fish, I would keep a snake or a turtle.

But all this is quite off-topic. Sookielee needs a cycled tank with ammonia/nitrite-conversion capable of detoxifying the effluent of a school of Cichlids stocked simultaneously. This may be >2.0ppm daily. In my opinion, only a deeply-cycled tank could handle this assignment. Planting can then be done slowly over time, if desired, if interested.
Hallyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2013, 04:59 PM   #28
 
Hallyx's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeysDad View Post

Seachem spent 10 years developing and fine tuning the bacteria strains in Stability.
In ten years, Timothy Hovanec, did his research, got his doctorate, developed and marketed a product which, arguably, revolutionized an industry, sold the manufacturing rights, developed a new superior product (as well as others) and started his own manufacturing business and consulting firm.

Seachem doesn't even know how Prime works on nitrite or nitrate. I'm not impressed with a ten-year development cycle on an obsolete product.

Although Carl Strohmeyer spoke favorably about Stability back when he wrote his treatise, to which I referred before, I have not talked to anyone who found that it worked better than the new breed of bottled live autotrophic bacteria.
Hallyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2013, 05:42 PM   #29
JDM
 
JDM's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallyx View Post
Jeff, I am delighted that you find it easy to grow and maintain plants. But the fact remains that the knowledge and skillset necessary to keep an "underwater garden" is considerably more involved and complex than performing a simple nitrogen cycle over a few weeks....etc
In the interest of not bogging down this thread I stand on my original statement as it pertains to live plants in the tank. That is about all the lore and tradition that I employed.

Anyone who wants to see anything that I did, or wish to comment further off this thread, can go to the thread referenced in my signature.

Jeff.

Last edited by JDM; 02-23-2013 at 05:51 PM..
JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 08:45 AM   #30
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallyx View Post
Seachem doesn't even know how Prime works on nitrite or nitrate. I'm not impressed with a ten-year development cycle on an obsolete product.
Seachem admits that detoxification of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate was an unexpected discovery rather than an expected outcome of the design. I find this honesty refreshing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallyx View Post
Although Carl Strohmeyer spoke favorably about Stability back when he wrote his treatise, to which I referred before, I have not talked to anyone who found that it worked better than the new breed of bottled live autotrophic bacteria.
Perhaps you haven't talked to enough people that have even used it?

I think it's just not responsible to discount products from reputable companies with no real objective evidence or data. Like I previously wrote, Dr. Tim did some good work but we're 10-15 years down the road and 'one and only' is no longer the 'one and only'.

Last edited by AbbeysDad; 02-26-2013 at 08:47 AM..
AbbeysDad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
fishless cycle please help omb00757 Beginner Freshwater Aquarium 2 02-02-2013 03:16 PM
fishless cycle mike o Beginner Freshwater Aquarium 21 06-08-2010 08:37 PM
fishless cycle or non fishless? MoneyMitch Freshwater and Tropical Fish 5 08-24-2009 04:47 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:56 PM.