Fish Stocking Hep
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Fish Stocking Hep

This is a discussion on Fish Stocking Hep within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> 29 gal cycled tank doing very wel (even after a 10day vacation witnha few auto feeders.....didnt loose on fish) <---------patting myself on the back ...

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Old 02-20-2012, 07:10 AM   #1
 
Red face Fish Stocking Hep

29 gal cycled tank doing very wel (even after a 10day vacation witnha few auto feeders.....didnt loose on fish) <---------patting myself on the back
heater with 2 hob filters (one used as a surface skimmer)
7.4 ph with fairly hard water - i do not seem to be building nitates - manbe plenty of plants of to many water changes - 18% water change freq 1-2 per week
many plants evenly distributed

Current stocking
2 long fin leopard danios - M & F get along great with each other and bothered by none
1 spotted cory - goes about his business with no issues
1 albino bristlenose pleco - goes about his business
3 Dension barbs (roseline shark) - i am guessing 1 m & 2 f - for the most part they swim together , even witht he danios at times. The only issue is the larger one claims 2/3 of the tank by herding the other 2 into the corner when the tank gets hungry.
1 blue 3spot gourami - female - no issues, gets along fine with all, goes about her business.

SO..........i would like to stock a few more fish but not too many as i do not want to overload the tank.

Should i get 2 more denison barbs to increase the school factor - i am concered about too many of these fish in the tank as they grow.

Should i get 2 more gourami's - 1 m and 1 f of the same blue species (not dwarf) or can i mix a few like the opaline or lavender (seen these two at petco in the semi aggressive tank. Considering a male lavender and a female opaline......or do i not get any more of these and leave her as the sole gourami in the tank

I also like the bolivian ram due to his abiity to be in a commuity semi aggressive tank..........

i would also like an scalare angelfish due to his ability to be tolerate a bit more water hardness and ph then the other angels and it grows bit smaller then the other.

Please help......really ready to pull the trigger..........it is so exciting get a new fish

All suggestions welcome......thanks
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:00 AM   #2
 
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Honestly, my stocking standards would be frowned upon by most of our members...I frown on them, but I can't help myself. So I'll just give you my experience with the gouramis. I have 1 male and 2 female Blue Gouramis in a 30 gallon tank. The male chases both of the females and the largest female chases the smaller female. It's funny but, occasionally the females will sneak up on the male and take a nip at him. I don't like the constant chasing. Maybe others have had different experiences. My advice would be to not add more gouramis.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:02 AM   #3
 
i have been reading so many stories about how to keep gouramis from fighting.......some good some bad.....all confusing.....maybe i will stay away from adding more gouramis
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:21 PM   #4
 
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You have no room for more fish, and you are soon going to have problems with what you already have. Please understand I am trying to help you (and your fish).

Leopard danio is a colour morph of the Zebra Danio. If you click on the shaded name you will see information in our profile, and note that it should be in groups of at least six, and not maintained with sedate fish (like gourami). I won't repeat the info in the profile here.

Denisons Barb attains 6 inches and also needs a group, 8 is the recommended minimum--to avoid what you are beginning to see in the behaviour from getting worse. This means a 5-foot tank at least, or preferably a 6-foot. This fish as it matures will also consider smaller fish as food. It too should not be with sedate fish. Click the shaded name...

Corys are shoaling fish that need a group, they are socially interactive. A group of five is minimum, you can have 3 of a species when more than one species is included, but the main thing is they need company. There are several species in our profiles, which are under the second tab from the left in the blue bar across the top of the page.

Byron.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:45 AM   #5
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron View Post
You have no room for more fish, and you are soon going to have problems with what you already have. Please understand I am trying to help you (and your fish).

Leopard danio is a colour morph of the Zebra Danio. If you click on the shaded name you will see information in our profile, and note that it should be in groups of at least six, and not maintained with sedate fish (like gourami). I won't repeat the info in the profile here.

I have a 15 gal tank that has a school of 9 danios, mostly zebra with a few of the gold morphs. When i add the blue female morph )much larger in size to the others) she seemed to become aggressive toward the others disrupting the whole tank so she was moved to the 29 gal. A week later i got her a male tank mate and their behavior seems to mimic the 15 gal......also as i added the barbs nothing changed in behavior. In my research everything i read mentioned the compatibility of the barbs, danios and the gourami.

Denisons Barb attains 6 inches and also needs a group, 8 is the recommended minimum--to avoid what you are beginning to see in the behaviour from getting worse. This means a 5-foot tank at least, or preferably a 6-foot. This fish as it matures will also consider smaller fish as food. It too should not be with sedate fish. Click the shaded name...

Tank size is not a concern......i am hooked on this hobby......i am a scientist by education (biochemisty,biology/chemistry) and 20 industry experience who was let go because of the economic down turn...i opened up a bicycle shop 3yrs ago where i do not use my scientific skills too much.....but this whole aquarium hobby has but the spark back in science......i guess what i am trying to say is i am already planning my 55+ tank. So by the time the densions get larger they will be moved in the next year or so. They are about 1.5 inches figuring that i have until they about double thier size 3-4 inches. I have been using the bio load calculation considering the size that they will grow in the year. I was hoping that a small uneven number would help the schooling aspect as long as i had enough stuff in the tank........but as you mentioned the behavior is becoming an issue.........i will try and add two more to see if that has any effect. who knows if i get to 8 quick enough that 55+ gal tank could be with in reach.....speaking to my wife====>..."but honey the fish that you like so much with the red stripe needs a bigger tank to be healthy, im sorry but there is nothing i can do about it"

Corys are shoaling fish that need a group, they are socially interactive. A group of five is minimum, you can have 3 of a species when more than one species is included, but the main thing is they need company. There are several species in our profiles, which are under the second tab from the left in the blue bar across the top of the page.

I will add another cory to start.
maybe remove the gourami (return or give away)


Byron.
its not easy creating a balanced tank when you try to consider all the variables to be learned
this is the formulas that i used in theory. As the tank progresses i will do my best to measure the actauls and recalculate to see when that new tank is in my future.


Starting Growth Size-----------------------1+ year growth
2 danios x 1 in = 2..................................x 1.5 in = 3
2 corys x 1.5 in = 3..................................x 2.5 in = 5
1 albino pleco x 1.5 in = 3...................................x 3 in = 3
5 densions x 2 in = 10.................................x 4 in = 20

total bio load 29 gal-tank = 18..........................................= 31

Last edited by nickt30; 02-21-2012 at 07:04 AM..
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:42 AM   #6
 
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I've had this old book for years, Exotic Tropical Fishes, that has formulas that involve types of fish and surface area. It says that different fish have different requirements even if they are the same size. For instance, tetras need less surface area than barbs. It even says you don't have to include "scavengers" and labyrinth fish in the equation. That being said, Byron's advice should be followed. Your water quality will be easier to manage and the fish will be healthier and grow closer to natural size. This is why people tend to have multiple aquariums.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:34 AM   #7
 
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Keep in mind a 55 gallon is still only 4 ft long, which could still be too small for the barbs.

"Gallons" isn't the be all, end all as has been suggested. Swimming room must also be considered. For example, many fish will do better in a 20 gallon long tank, then they will in a 20 gallon tall tank even though the volume is equal (I've found this out the hard way).

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately depending on how you look at it ;) the only 'standard' size tanks larger than 4 feet are 100, 125, 150, and 180 gallons. All of those are 6 feet in length (72").
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:01 AM   #8
 
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Given the choice of "high" or "long", I always take the long aquarium. As Geomancer says, gallons aren't always the end of the story. High tanks are great for different types of aquascaping but, long tanks provide more swimming area and territory.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:51 PM   #9
 
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I'd like to pick up on a couple of the points raised by the OP (nickt30) and subsequent members' posts if I may.

Quote:
I have a 15 gal tank that has a school of 9 danios, mostly zebra with a few of the gold morphs. When i add the blue female morph )much larger in size to the others) she seemed to become aggressive toward the others disrupting the whole tank so she was moved to the 29 gal. A week later i got her a male tank mate and their behavior seems to mimic the 15 gal......also as i added the barbs nothing changed in behavior. In my research everything i read mentioned the compatibility of the barbs, danios and the gourami.

This illustrates the issues with tank sizes and numbers of fish for a species. A couple of fairly recent scientific studies (which I linked in a post a couple of months back) exploring this area of tank size and numbers of shoaling fish species found evidence that shoaling fish maintained in groups of less than five displayed significantly increased aggression toward each other and other fish species. When maintained in groups greater than five, no such aggression occurred. And some of the species were what we term "peaceful," like neon tetra and similar. Angelfish were also in the study with the same results. As well, they looked at tank sizes, and found that these same fish kept in aquaria that were small also had increased aggressive tendencies, whereas in larger tanks they did not. The studies conclusions were that shoaling fish must be in groups and must not be confined in small spaces, or aggression would likely result. The reason is stress.

Danio are active fish, and a group of nine is a good size. But a 15g is far too small of a physical space. The fish will feel confined, and the reaction of the female you added is not surprising. It was suddenly placed in a very confined space so that caused stress, and on top of that it encountered a large group of its own species (colour morphs have little relevance within a species) and would immediately be stressed by that. When a fish is under stress, it has few options to deal with it. The usual is to increase its aggression; it is frustrated and "lashing out" is the result. Another option is to withdraw; the fish hiding up in the corner, or behind the filter, is doing so because it is scared of its environment. All this is not much different than humans, really.

A group of 9 small-species Danio should be in nothing less than a 20g long (30-inch) tank. A smaller group of say 6 can manage in a 24-inch (as your 15g presumably is) but I would not cram in more.

Barb and Danio are usually compatible. Both are active swimmers, and this is where the gourami has trouble. A sedate fish like gourami, angelfish, discus should not be maintained in tanks with active swimming fish. They are simply not compatible. A fish like the gourami that naturally occurs in swamps, small lagoon lakes and flooded forest, cruising slowly among floating vegetation, is not going to feel "OK" if it has to contend with feisty barbs and danios charging around the tank all day. And, these feisty fish are very apt to decide that the gourami's fins are a target to nip.

A last comment here on research. I previously mentioned our profiles. Most of them were authored by me. In compiling them, I researched knowledgeable sources that have scientific soundness. Rarely did I ever find differences of opinion, but when I did, and the source was reliable, I mentioned it. None of us can know all that may occur with this or that fish, but we learn from ichthyologists and biologists who have spent years, even lifetimes, carefully studying these fish, and their advice cannot be dismissed. To do so is like having a disease and going to a doctor, then ignoring his advice; yes, go to several doctors, including specialists, and take the consensus--but follow it. That is what you will find in the profiles.

Quote:
Tank size is not a concern......i am hooked on this hobby......i am a scientist by education (biochemisty,biology/chemistry) and 20 industry experience who was let go because of the economic down turn...i opened up a bicycle shop 3yrs ago where i do not use my scientific skills too much.....but this whole aquarium hobby has but the spark back in science......i guess what i am trying to say is i am already planning my 55+ tank. So by the time the densions get larger they will be moved in the next year or so. They are about 1.5 inches figuring that i have until they about double thier size 3-4 inches. I have been using the bio load calculation considering the size that they will grow in the year. I was hoping that a small uneven number would help the schooling aspect as long as i had enough stuff in the tank........but as you mentioned the behavior is becoming an issue.........i will try and add two more to see if that has any effect. who knows if i get to 8 quick enough that 55+ gal tank could be with in reach.....speaking to my wife====>..."but honey the fish that you like so much with the red stripe needs a bigger tank to be healthy, im sorry but there is nothing i can do about it"


Some of this I covered above. Here I'll just repeat a maxim I follow without fail: never buy a fish that you cannot now maintain adequately at its mature size. Tanks we intend getting down the road often do not materialize--and the poor fish is the real loser. There is also the scientific fact that fish grow throughout their lives, developing internally and externally. The internal development will not slow due to tank sizes, but the external does, and stunting is the result. This can begin very early. Water quality has as much to do with this as physical space. But the fish needs space. And with shoaling fish, they almost always must have the full group size from day one. In nature they first enter the world together; this is an inherent need that evolution has given them, and it must be provided if the fish is to develop normally and healthily. While one can do this in stages it is not always easy to ascertain these, and the risk will again be detrimental to the fish, and once done cannot be reversed.


As for the calculations, I do not believe that works. As mentioned above, shoaling fish need their own around them, from day one. Stress will undoubtedly set in without, and this can have serious consequences. Increased health problems (stress weakens the immune system for one thing), and almost always a shorter than normal lifespan. This topic is being discussed in another thread, here:
ideas for a community aquarium
and member 1077 made some pertinent points.

Quote:
I've had this old book for years, Exotic Tropical Fishes, that has formulas that involve types of fish and surface area. It says that different fish have different requirements even if they are the same size. For instance, tetras need less surface area than barbs. It even says you don't have to include "scavengers" and labyrinth fish in the equation.


Fish monger raised this, and I agree. While we have considerably more scientific data and evidence now than was available when that book (which I have) was written, some of it is still valid. I have already alluded to why barbs need more surface area than characins: their level of activity, plain and simple. A more active fish needs more oxygen, and the greater the surface area, the more gas exchange will occur. And I frequently suggest that substrate fish can be added, sometimes members wonder if that is not overloading the system, but as this points out it often does not. And the anabantids (labyrinth fish) speak for themselves.

I hope what I've set out is of benefit in understanding the complexities of this; there are, you the OP said, so many variables to be learned. The article linked in the above thread I linked follows up on some of them.

Byron.
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:11 PM   #10
 
and the topic deepens

Thank you Byron and all else.......for the wonderful info.....very informative.

Your explaination helped tie together all the bits and peices that are available out there.

I am going to re think this tanks
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