Fish Dying and coming to surface for air. - Page 3 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #21 of 32 Old 04-30-2013, 12:22 PM
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LoL I have no clue but it does make a weird noise. The very first time I hooked up my canister I did it wrong and the instruction were poorly wrote and mostly in German. I thought great how on earth do I hook this loud over priced piece of junk up?? Well once I figured out what I did and reverse the hose to the right places and primed it again it has ran great and silent every since.

Also you say the bacteria goes into a dormant state but how long can it stay that way?? I though it HAD to oxygenated water to survive and in a filter that does flow right it wouldn't be getting that I wouldn't think.
It has to have oxygen to "eat" ammonia but not to survive. I'll see if I can pull the study and get some scientific jargon but it amounted to being called persistent and not as easy to kill as originally thought even by the scientists. They weren't concerned about the actual survivability timeline outside of their food sources so I am not sure that one was mentioned. Their studies weren't aimed specifically at that factor but at determining the inhibiting levels of ammonia on nitrifiers (1ppm is the main threshold when nitrite oxidizers go dormant) and how high a level they can withstand once they go dormant... somewhere over 10 or 12 ppm. They also found that they are very sticky and do not come off of their respective surfaces easily... including using scrubbing and cleaners. Short of drying out the tank I doubt that we ever do anything that can kill them off or affect the actual nitrifying biofilms. The whole "mini-cycle" is really just a momentary overload of input rather than being the result of any organism deaths.

Anyway, a wet filter is enough to keep the entire film alive regardless of the waterflow, particularly if it is only for a day or two.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
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post #22 of 32 Old 04-30-2013, 12:39 PM
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It has to have oxygen to "eat" ammonia but not to survive. I'll see if I can pull the study and get some scientific jargon but it amounted to being called persistent and not as easy to kill as originally thought even by the scientists. They weren't concerned about the actual survivability timeline outside of their food sources so I am not sure that one was mentioned. Their studies weren't aimed specifically at that factor but at determining the inhibiting levels of ammonia on nitrifiers (1ppm is the main threshold when nitrite oxidizers go dormant) and how high a level they can withstand once they go dormant... somewhere over 10 or 12 ppm. They also found that they are very sticky and do not come off of their respective surfaces easily... including using scrubbing and cleaners. Short of drying out the tank I doubt that we ever do anything that can kill them off or affect the actual nitrifying biofilms. The whole "mini-cycle" is really just a momentary overload of input rather than being the result of any organism deaths.

Anyway, a wet filter is enough to keep the entire film alive regardless of the waterflow, particularly if it is only for a day or two.

Jeff.
Here's the paper you're probably referring to:
Strategies of aerobic ammonia-oxidizing bacteria for coping with nutrient and oxygen fluctuations - Geets - 2006 - FEMS Microbiology Ecology - Wiley Online Library

And here is a summary article from PFK:
Think you know filter bacteria? Dream on

Of course, one must now keep in mind that these strains of bacteria are not what most of us have in our filters. We now know the organism is actually archaea, not bacteria, in an established tank. I have not come across any data yet on how archaea responds to oxygen, tap water, etc., whether it is the same as what we assume for the "bacteria" or different.

Byron.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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post #23 of 32 Old 04-30-2013, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
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Petco didn't have a liquid test kit, alas.

If I mix the water half and half, it is still as high as the test goes. If I mix two parts of softened water to one part pre-softened, I get 60 on the test.
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post #24 of 32 Old 04-30-2013, 01:52 PM
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Here's the paper you're probably referring to:
Strategies of aerobic ammonia-oxidizing bacteria for coping with nutrient and oxygen fluctuations - Geets - 2006 - FEMS Microbiology Ecology - Wiley Online Library

And here is a summary article from PFK:
Think you know filter bacteria? Dream on

Of course, one must now keep in mind that these strains of bacteria are not what most of us have in our filters. We now know the organism is actually archaea, not bacteria, in an established tank. I have not come across any data yet on how archaea responds to oxygen, tap water, etc., whether it is the same as what we assume for the "bacteria" or different.

Byron.
No, I'd not read either of those and one of the items I did read addressed the archaea rather than bacteria and the other addressed the biofilms as nitrifying organisms rather than speculating on which they were as they recognized that either way, they were serving the same purpose... and they aren't so readily accessible as to be able to link directly either I'm afraid.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
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post #25 of 32 Old 04-30-2013, 02:02 PM
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Petco didn't have a liquid test kit, alas.

If I mix the water half and half, it is still as high as the test goes. If I mix two parts of softened water to one part pre-softened, I get 60 on the test.
OK, so that would mean that your GH might be in the 180 range, or 10dGHish. Seeing as the strips probably top off at 12dGH (even the liquid test instructions stop there, but it is a drop counting system so it's easily extrapolated) that makes sense that 1/2 and 1/2 didn't work.

That's not terrible, I probably mentioned I have 23dGH...but I didn't already have fish and I've forgotten what you have left so their requirements I won't talk about.

I don't soften our water at all for our use or the fish. if the 10dGH is anywhere close, then, if it were me, I would just shut off the softener (I hate soft water BTW and this is not to be considered a recommendation as to how you should handle your water for human consumption or use as there may very well be reasons that you need to soften the water that I am unaware of).

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
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post #26 of 32 Old 04-30-2013, 02:12 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, I think part of the problem is that our softener was set incorrectly for that hardness. Based on the 10 dgh, I set it for 10 instead of the 25 where it was. (I used this, which said how to set it: Water Softeners: adjustment instructions: Guide to Water Softener Adjustment & Maintenance .)

I'll see what difference that makes when it kicks in and decide what to do from there.
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post #27 of 32 Old 04-30-2013, 02:38 PM
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How high do the test strips go to for GH?

I got thinking about this and with the softened to unsoftened ratio of 1:1, if the unsoftened was 180ppm, the test should have resulted in 90ppm (5dGH) which would be well within the test range so it doesn't make sense that it wold have shown as maxing out the test.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
JDM is offline  
post #28 of 32 Old 04-30-2013, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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The test strips go to 180 ppm.
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post #29 of 32 Old 04-30-2013, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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I don't like the test strips. I tried mixing half and half again and got 120. :-/
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post #30 of 32 Old 04-30-2013, 03:55 PM
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Well, that puts you at 13.5dGH... obviously it's not that reliable. You'll like the liquid test. Drop, shake, drop shake, drop shake until the colour changes. When it does, the number of drops is the degrees of hardness. You can be off by one degree easy enough though as sometimes it doesn't take the whole drop to make the change occur... yes, I've tested it.

Each degree of hardness equals 17.9ppm

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
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