*First Aquarium* - Page 3
Tropical Fish

Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources » Freshwater Fish and Aquariums » Beginner Freshwater Aquarium » *First Aquarium*

*First Aquarium*

This is a discussion on *First Aquarium* within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> theres no quick way of cycling a tank, the bacteria grows when they grow. yes, you can take some gravel or filter media to ...

Check out these freshwater fish profiles
Banded Gourami
Banded Gourami
Banded Leporinus
Banded Leporinus
Reply
Old 08-13-2009, 04:14 AM   #21
 
onefish2fish's Avatar
 
theres no quick way of cycling a tank, the bacteria grows when they grow. yes, you can take some gravel or filter media to help "seed" your tank and even raise your temp a few degrees but this is only going to increase cycling time by a minimal ammount.
the freshwater clam will not survive in your tank for any period of time, period. even products that claim to feed these animals dont work. the tanks only 9 gallons so your really stuck to a few small fish. liquid test kits are better then the strips and patience is key.
onefish2fish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2009, 04:59 AM   #22
 
1077's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefish2fish View Post
theres no quick way of cycling a tank, the bacteria grows when they grow. yes, you can take some gravel or filter media to help "seed" your tank and even raise your temp a few degrees but this is only going to increase cycling time by a minimal ammount.
the freshwater clam will not survive in your tank for any period of time, period. even products that claim to feed these animals dont work. the tanks only 9 gallons so your really stuck to a few small fish. liquid test kits are better then the strips and patience is key.

I beg to differ. You can take already established bacteria found in disease free existing tanks, and reduce the time needed to safely add fish to new tanks considerably. My self, along with I suspect many others ,,have done so for years.
1077 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2009, 05:15 AM   #23
 
why wouldn't the freshwater clam survive in my tank for any period of time?

M
tfoso90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2009, 11:56 AM   #24
 
Byron's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1077 View Post
I beg to differ. You can take already established bacteria found in disease free existing tanks, and reduce the time needed to safely add fish to new tanks considerably. My self, along with I suspect many others ,,have done so for years.
I fully concur. Unless one does not believe the information and data that I posted previously of my experiences, it is obvious from that data that a tank can be cycled within a day or two, safely and effectively. It is critical to add sufficient bacteria when the first fish are introduced, and the existing water parameters must be conclusive to the growth of the bacteria. What follows is what I have learned (and apply) from my research pertaining to this issue.

Nitrosomonas and nitrospira [Timothy Hovanec, et.al., in 1997 concluded that nitrospira and not nitrobacter are likely the second stage bacteria; subsequent literature has frequently included both as nitrobacter may still have a role] bacteria reproduce by binary division, i.e., splitting into two. The rate at which this occurs depends on water parameters (temperature, pH and oxygen level). Under optimum conditions, namely at normal aquarium temperatures of around 77-79F, and basic (slightly alkaline) pH in the mid 7's, nitrosomonas bacteria are able to multiply every 7 hours, and nitrobacter every 13 hours. This means that within each of these timeframes, the level of bacteria doubles, assuming there is "food" available in the form of ammonia (for nitrosomonas) and nitrite (nitrobacter/nitrospira). These bacteria will not multiply without food, and they will die off if the food decreases below what they require.

At a pH below 7.0, that is, slightly acidic, nitrosomonas bacteria multiply more slowly, and the lower the pH the slower the growth to the point where it will apparently cease. However, this is of limited concern to the aquarist, since ammonia largely changes to ammonium as the pH lowers, and ammonium is basically non-toxic to fish. Furthermore, in a planted aquarium there is another benefit because a considerable amount of the ammonium is consumed by the plants. It is frequently said that plants require and use nitrate (the third product of the nitrification cycle) but several authors suggest the ammonium is the actual food used and nitrates are lower simply because there is less ammonia/ammonium left after plants have consumed it, so less nitrite and then less nitrate.

If a large quantity of live bacteria (both nitrosomonas and nitrobacter) are introduced into a new aquarium with some fish, the ammonia produced by the fish will be consumed by the nitrosomonas, and as they convert it to nitrite it becomes food for the nitrospira/nitrobacter. As the level of ammonia increases, the bacteria multiply accordingly, to the point of doubling if sufficient food is available.

We all know that it is possible in an established aquarium to add several new fish, and not create a mini-cycle. This occurs because the present bacteria, which remain basically at the level required for the available food source, can multiply fairly quickly to handle the increase. As many of my colleagues on this forum have mentioned, one should never see an increase in ammonia or nitrite in an established aquarium. This same rate of multiplication must obviously occur at the begnning, once the bacteria are present. The goal is to introduce sufficient bacteria to handle the bioload of the fish. It is my contention that when this is done, there is no detrimental effect from "new tank syndrome" because the bacteria are there, they are sufficient, and they multiply accordingly.

In his monthly column in the July 2009 issue of TFH, Dr. Ted Coletti mentions (as have many other authorities) that "in a standard aquarium, most of your aerobic bacteria will not be in your filter but on your tank walls, plants, ornaments, rocks, gravel bed--any surface area." In my previously related experience, I added a substantial quantity of live bacteria via the bogwood and plants. I also dosed the tank with "Stability" which is a live bacteria supplement. Three days after filling the tank with fresh water, and with gravel and filter media that definitely contained no bacteria whatsoever, I had 109 fish in the tank (four new fish went in the following week to make the present 113). In the succeeding four weeks there have been no fish losses nor any sign of stress, and ammonia and nitrite readings have consistently been "0" throughout, with nitrate at 5 the first week and since then at 10 ppm (which is where it has always been in both my aquaria). The bacteria had to have been there, or this would never have succeeded. And the same occurred in the 90g set up a week after the 115g, and other tanks in the past as I mentioned previously.

The critical point that must be kept in mind is that the bacteria must be sufficient for the fish load in order for this to work out. As 1077 and many other members have frequently written, seeding a new tank assists in the colonization of bacteria and does reduce, and I maintain can eliminate, any associated stress on the fish beyond that of finding themselves in a new environment. My experience also clearly shows that biological supplements on their own (as in my 1998 experience I related previously) work the same way. For beginning aquarists, the safe route is still to start with only a few fish and seed the tank with either or both methods. Fish loss associated with a new tank will not occur if this is done. I was discussing this with an experienced aquarist and owner of two solely-aquarium stores only last week, and he told me that in all his years where customers have insisted on buying the fish and the tank at the same time (still not recommended, for several reasons), where they have taken his advice and used a biological supplement, not one has come back with dead fish; the same cannot be said for the others.

Byron.
Byron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2009, 02:20 PM   #25
 
onefish2fish's Avatar
 
i didnt get a chance to read byrons post because i have to run out the door but 1077 im saying you CAN seed a tank with another tanks substrate or filter media and slightly raise the temp to increase cycling time but its still going to take as long as it does to cycle the tank. regardless if you put the established media into a tank and lets say use a raw shrimp to "feed" your cycle, your tank will only be cycled to hold enough bio-load as the shrimp so stocking must be done appropriately.

freshwater clams wont live in a tank long term that does not have green water conditions as these clams are filter feeders taking their food from the water. i have also heard that the saltwater products ( like live phyto ) does not work when feeding to these clams.

Last edited by onefish2fish; 08-14-2009 at 02:27 PM..
onefish2fish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2009, 02:45 PM   #26
 
aunt kymmie's Avatar
 
Not that I'd ever disagree with you OF2F so my apologies up front, no disrespect intended, but I wanted to share my experience with jump starting a cycle with established media.

I set up a brand new 6gl tank. To cycle it I grabbed a large handful of the substrate from another cycled tank I had and put the substrate in the "foot" of a nylon hose. I set the nylon hose filled with substrate on the new bed of sand in the new tank. I had a nitrate reading in a week's time.
Is it possible that the quick rate of cycling achieved was due to the fact that it was only an itty bitty 6gl and the handful of substrate was huge??
aunt kymmie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 02:26 AM   #27
 
1077's Avatar
 
In a nutshell, For I could not begin to explain it better than Byron has,,, It is indeed the amount of bacteria in relation to bioload.
Is no different than purchasing fish and then bringing them home ,setting up quarantine tank with new dechlorinated water, and then removing sponge filter from existing tank ,or filter material,or substrate and placing it in uncycled quarantine tank or in filter if using HOB type filter. IF the new fish are not too large,too numerous,and they are not overfed, the quarantine tank will see no ammonia or nitrite spikes and fish will be comfortable.
IF too many fish, or too large of fish,create more waste than the bacteria is capable of keeping up with then yes,, There will be problems with toxins ie ammonia, and nitrites.
I have moved Six Discus along with Rams from one tank to another overnight by simply taking the filter from the old tank ,and placing it on the new tank with new substrate,and new dechlorinated and properly heated water. So long as one does not exceed the capability of seed material, no problems. But I would always rather see a tank mature naturally and slowly when possible.
I would always when seeding a tank,, use all the seed material I could ,especially if moving large numbers of fish.
I take issue with those on other forums who frequently suggest squeezing seeded material into a new tank or filter and ,,Presto ,,Add a couple dozen fish. It just don't work. I also take issue with the phrase,, cycled tank and seldom use it except for helping young or new hobbyist's better understand. I dislike the term cycled,, because it implies that at some point,, the process is complete and it just don't work like that. The tank begins to mature as soon as water and fish are added and the (cycling),, or maturing process, continues until the tank is tore down. Nitrifying bacteria are only a portion of the bacteria and micro organisims that develop in an aquarium as it matures and it is in my view ,,the balance of everything combined that makes for a stable enviornment. If more people would train their efforts on maintainig water quality in a closed sytem, (glass box) there would be far fewer sick or dying fish. In a glass box of water,there are no tides,or currents,or rains to dilute toxins or carry them away and small frequent water changes,combined with filter maint on regular basis,not overfeeding or overstocking, and using full function water conditioners are the best way to prevent glass box of water from deteriorating . I have found over the years that if water quality is maintained,, there is little need for all the potions,chemical medias,and medications. That leaves more money for buying Fish!
1077 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 02:51 AM   #28
 
1077's Avatar
 
In addition to previous post..Just as the tank begins to mature when water and fish are added,, so too does the water quality begin to deteriorate. Fish waste,fish food,decaying plant matter,fertilizers,medications,anything capable of going into solution (dissolving) affects the water quality and contributes to Total dissolved solids in said water.
Filters, in essence,,, help slow the rate of deterioration but they will not remove what has gathered there. Sure there are different chemical media that reduce pollutants in the water but they ultimately are bound to the media and only through replacing ,or recharging the media in the filter can water quality be sustained. Some of the media sold for removing this or that gives people false sense of security and some presume that this media will negate the need for water changes and filter maint.
Nothing,,, In my view,, sold will produce more favorable results than Small frequent water changes along with maintainig the filter through regular maint,and avoiding most of the products that promise to do what ultimately you an I can do far more cheaper, and faster. Hope some of this helps somebody.
1077 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
So how did he do it - some Aquarium! rsn48 Beginner Freshwater Aquarium 2 01-30-2010 12:32 PM
New aquarium MoneyMitch Beginner Freshwater Aquarium 11 10-13-2009 07:24 PM
Can you move aquarium decorations around in a established aquarium? ShawnMcc Freshwater and Tropical Fish 6 06-02-2009 12:41 PM


Tags
biube, biube 35l, first aquarium, reef-one, reefone

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:19 PM.