Elevated Amonia and Nitrate - Even after Partial Water Change...? - Page 2 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 11:12 AM
JDM
Member
 
JDM's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeysDad View Post
To my knowledge, Prime detoxifies ammonia but does not cause it to increase.
If the water has been treated with chloramine (NH2Cl) the prime removes the chlorine and releases the ammonia which it then converts to ammonium... so if city water has been added and treated with Prime, there will be a higher concentration of ammonia/ammonium over and above the combined tap water and tank water content. All the ammonia will show up on the test, toxic or not.

If that ammonium is not removed it will convert back to toxic ammonia in the ratio determined by the pH after the 24-48 hour detox time. The lower the pH, the less of a concern it may be.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
JDM is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 11:23 AM
JDM
Member
 
JDM's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeaninel View Post
Never heard of Prime locking up oxygen.
Posted via Mobile Device
Without trying to get all chemical, choramine is NH2Cl. The Prime turns the NH2 into NH4 (ammonium) so obviously there are some sort of freed up Hydrogen ions used for this and Prime does not alter the pH so it doesn't use existing ones. If you over dose the Prime it might be safe to assume (I'm only speculating here) that a whole lot of H ions could be grabbed by the O2 to create more H2O. I think that 5 times the dose is suggested by the manufacturer as still being safe so you would probably have to REALLY be overdosing it.

Adding lots of chemicals just doesn't sound like a good idea all around.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
JDM is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to JDM For This Useful Post:
beaslbob (02-28-2013)
post #13 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 11:52 AM
Member
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Without trying to get all chemical, choramine is NH2Cl. The Prime turns the NH2 into NH4 (ammonium) so obviously there are some sort of freed up Hydrogen ions used for this and Prime does not alter the pH so it doesn't use existing ones. If you over dose the Prime it might be safe to assume (I'm only speculating here) that a whole lot of H ions could be grabbed by the O2 to create more H2O. I think that 5 times the dose is suggested by the manufacturer as still being safe so you would probably have to REALLY be overdosing it.

Adding lots of chemicals just doesn't sound like a good idea all around.

Jeff.

thanks hadn't considered that and the locking up of oxygen is reported by water companies. But I didn't know the mechanism.

I also have heard reports that KH (carbonate hardness) also crashes. So perhaps those h+ ions are hitting the carbonate ions as well.

Meahwhile back at the tank perhaps this also explains why pH is low.

All of which well be reversed by not using prime and letting the plants consume the ammonia directly. Plus consuming co2 and returning oxygen as well.

I also read one article years ago that plants when consuming nitrates return KH to the tank in the same ratio the aerobic bacteria ate up producing the nitrates. But then they may also be using carbonate for carbon instead of carbon dioxide. So you may not wee any difference.

All I know is my uncirculated planted tanks have a pH of over 8 just before lights out.

still just my .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
beaslbob is offline  
post #14 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 12:20 PM
JDM
Member
 
JDM's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
thanks hadn't considered that and the locking up of oxygen is reported by water companies. But I didn't know the mechanism.
I don't know that I am correct, it just makes sense that might be what is going on with regards to the O2 issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
I also have heard reports that KH (carbonate hardness) also crashes. So perhaps those h+ ions are hitting the carbonate ions as well.

Meahwhile back at the tank perhaps this also explains why pH is low.

All of which well be reversed by not using prime and letting the plants consume the ammonia directly. Plus consuming co2 and returning oxygen as well.
Prime doesn't change the plant or bacterial consumption of ammonia, locked or not it gets used up similarly. Prime instructions state that it removes ammonia and binds nitrites and nitrates, which is a little off. It binds ammonia also allowing the plants and bacteria time to consume them while rendered non-toxic which is considered the "removing" mechanism. There's a whole thread devoted to this... here's the link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
I also read one article years ago that plants when consuming nitrates return KH to the tank in the same ratio the aerobic bacteria ate up producing the nitrates. But then they may also be using carbonate for carbon instead of carbon dioxide. So you may not wee any difference.
I noticed that while my tank was still new, KH was reduced after each water change over the next few days with the plants before I ever had any nitrates... by as much as 25%. Now my KH seems more stable and my nitrates don't really move up much, always under 5ppm even after two weeks between the last changes. I don't add CO2, my pH rides in the high 7's. So that sort of makes sense. I'd have to think about the chemical changes involved... but it's lunch time.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
JDM is offline  
post #15 of 15 Old 02-28-2013, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
If the water has been treated with chloramine (NH2Cl) the prime removes the chlorine and releases the ammonia which it then converts to ammonium... so if city water has been added and treated with Prime, there will be a higher concentration of ammonia/ammonium over and above the combined tap water and tank water content. All the ammonia will show up on the test, toxic or not.

If that ammonium is not removed it will convert back to toxic ammonia in the ratio determined by the pH after the 24-48 hour detox time. The lower the pH, the less of a concern it may be.

Jeff.
Yes, I misspoke regarding the removal of chlorine, which creates ammonia that Prime converts to ammonium for 24-48 hrs. My point however, was that the low pH makes ammonia non toxic, but a sudden increase in pH could cause a problem.

Father Knows Best but Abbey knows everything! I once knew everything, then I asked one question.
` ...><((((>` . . ` . . . ><((((> . ` .. . ><((((>
AbbeysDad is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
can I do a partial water change? redlessi Freshwater and Tropical Fish 3 08-27-2009 12:25 PM
Did my first partial water change... JackBauer Beginner Freshwater Aquarium 14 02-22-2007 04:38 PM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome