to cycle ( i know i should know..) - Page 4 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #31 of 46 Old 09-30-2013, 11:59 AM
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The only way that I can see keeping the bio filter in the substrate (as your primary biofiltration) is if you constantly replace the media in the filter. By not allowing the bacteria to colonize the media, it will force the growth of the bacteria in the rest if the tank.

There is only ever 100% filtration, so any bacteria that grows on the filter media will do so at the expense of the colonies elsewhere in the tank. The fact that such a large volume of water passes through the filter (compared to the substrate) means the bacteria that grows in the filter is essentially being force fed. I know some people believe that the majority of bio filtration occurs in the substrate, but I am not really on board with that as a rule.

Much fuss is made about surface area for the bacteria, but real estate is not a limiting factor for bacteria growth in most aquariums. Availability of food determines the size of any population, be it bacteria, snails, ants, etc. The flow of water through the filter is greater than the flow of water through the substrate, so more bacteria lives in the filter than the substrate. The flow of water takes the path of least resistance, which means the current does not so much penetrate the substrate as it does flow over it.

125 - BGK, chanchito cichlid, pictus cats, silver dollars, palmas bichir
125 - cichlids (severums, bolivian rams, chocolate), rainbows ( turquoise, red), loaches (angelicus, zebra, kuhli and horseface), plecos (BN, RL and clown), denison barbs, tiretrack eel, pearl gouramis, betta
90 - Congo tetras, african knife, upside down cats, spotted ctenopoma, kribensis, delhezzi bichir
2.5 - betta
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post #32 of 46 Old 09-30-2013, 02:13 PM
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Hello jaysee;
somehow i am missing your point. Is it excessive water movement is necessary for the establishment of bacterial colonies. there might be one other limiting factor that effects nitrification colonies and that is availability of dissolved oxygen and perhaps the rate of reproduction and water temp and pH. i thought that at low pH about 5.8 bacterial process associated with nitrification ceases as it will in very cold water. is there an inverse relationship between ammonia and pH .... as the pH drops there is less ammonia that becomes more toxic and as the pH increases there is more ammonia that is less toxic. confusing isn't it.

what happens to bacterial colony members that have exhausted their life span and die ..... do they become themselves sources of dissolved organic nitrogen and carbon that the colony feeds on or are the dead fodder for the other unwanted bacteria the bad ones that compete with nitrification bacteria for necessary resources.

just because i talk is not proof i know what i am talking about.


we should finish our conversation in a different forum any other than the beginner forum.
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post #33 of 46 Old 09-30-2013, 02:45 PM
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Yes there are a bunch of other factors involved, but I didn't want to get into them here. The argument is made that there is more bacteria living in the substrate than in the filter because there is more surface area in the substrate than in the filter. My point wasn't that excessive water movement is needed, but that there is simply more food available to the bacteria living in the filter than the substrate. More food means a bigger population, all other things being equal.

Dr. Hovanec says that the bacteria are consumed when they die.

125 - BGK, chanchito cichlid, pictus cats, silver dollars, palmas bichir
125 - cichlids (severums, bolivian rams, chocolate), rainbows ( turquoise, red), loaches (angelicus, zebra, kuhli and horseface), plecos (BN, RL and clown), denison barbs, tiretrack eel, pearl gouramis, betta
90 - Congo tetras, african knife, upside down cats, spotted ctenopoma, kribensis, delhezzi bichir
2.5 - betta
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post #34 of 46 Old 10-01-2013, 03:43 AM Thread Starter
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if it helps please others then chat on guys...i don't mind,if it helps others then
it's all good.

when you set up a new tank,hide an extra
sponge or two behind some decor,that way you have
something seeded for you next filter.
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post #35 of 46 Old 10-01-2013, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pop View Post
jaysee, boredome and blackwaterguy participation would just make the conversation that more enjoyable and learning experience for me. I will try to get a post for discussion together in the next few days. ....

Willow thank you for starting this thread
A learning experience for me as well. And these are just the people I'd like to wrangle these ideas with.

Thank you, Willow.
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post #36 of 46 Old 10-01-2013, 05:28 AM
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I have several questions that I'd like to ask in a deeper conversation. But I'd like to address Pop's latest question here.

The relationship between harmful, free ammonia (NH3) and harmless ammonium (NH4) is pH dependent. As pH declines, more free ammonia is converted to ammonium. At <6.0pH, it's mostly ammonium. I'll post a chart below that explains this. Nitrifying bacteria seem to multiply fastest in higher KH water with a pH >7.6 or so. They don't like acidic, low KH water.

Nitrifying bacteria also like higher temperatures. (I've heard several sources say ~*82*-84* is optimum. I have no way of ascertaining that myself.). But harmful free ammonia is higher at higher temperatures, as indicated on the chart.

CNYKOI - Ammonia calculator
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post #37 of 46 Old 10-01-2013, 11:18 AM
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I look forward to enjoining you, Hallyx in conversation in the advanced freshwater forum. jaysee, boredome and blackwaterguy participation would just make the conversation that more enjoyable and learning experience for me. I will try to get a post for discussion together in the next few days.
pop
I would very much enjoy this as well, although not sure I could bring any thing to the table.
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post #38 of 46 Old 10-01-2013, 12:01 PM
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Lemmesee here...2-drops/gal=~1.0ppm ammonia. That's 20 drops/10g for 1.0ppm. If you want a strong fishless cycle, say 4.0ppm NH3, that's 80 drops. How many drops per teaspoon?
Sorry just catching up on this thread soo I know its a lil late!

With your formula there Hallyx are you assuming the ammonia being used is a 10% solution? I know I have seen many formulas but I know I have also seen different strengths of the solution you can buy to, like some are 3% ammonia and not 10%.

Also I have read that there is 80-98 drops of water in a teaspoon depending on what size dropper you use.*shrugs* Have no clue if that's right or not.

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post #39 of 46 Old 10-01-2013, 01:15 PM
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Hello Hallyx:

that is a nifty chart and it is color coded too. I have seen the NH3 and NH4 process before and as i read it the pH falls the amount of NH3 falls threw conversion to NH4 but the NH3 not converted to NH4 is more concentrated and toxic than before; and as the pH rises NH3 is derived from NH4 which creates a greater volume diluting NH3 to a less toxic state.

In a strange way all of this makes some sense when considering ammonia is the commodity we are looking for to supply our bacteria and plants.

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post #40 of 46 Old 10-02-2013, 09:05 AM
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The NH3 is ionized to NH4+ by adding an H, which it gets from the water. At higher pH (>6.5pH), the water wants it back, so it starts converting NH4 back into NH3; faster the higher the pH. Just as much as there was before. No more; no less.

Concentration and variability of toxin potency doesn't enter into as far as I can see.

I assumed 10% ammonia because I think it was mentioned earlier.

Drops/tsp probably depends more on the viscosity than on dropper size.

Last edited by Hallyx; 10-02-2013 at 09:09 AM.
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