Cyanobacteria in the freshwater planted aquarium - Page 3 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #21 of 104 Old 03-26-2013, 02:46 AM
This cleaning process was in part to remove fertilizer, as i had osmocote in the substrate (and will no longer be using it). This was added AFTER the "slime" started showing up. After the water change, Nitrates were lowered, and fish stress levels were obviously lowering as more natural colors were starting to return. Will keep an eye out for ich.

I think the light started the cyano, and then adding the ferts just fed it as my nitrates were at about 60ppm a day or two after adding ferts.
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post #22 of 104 Old 03-26-2013, 07:04 AM
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Hello all:
I have come to believe that cyanobacteria might be a nitrogen fixer and could be converting nitrogen from the air, air consists of more than 70% nitrogen and might be represented in the water column.
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post #23 of 104 Old 03-26-2013, 07:27 AM
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I'm pretty sure that nitrogen off gases quickly from water, more so than CO2, so I doubt that it would be much of a factor in feeding a nitrogen fixer. Someone with some working knowledge of partial pressures would be able to better answer that though, I'd have to refresh my memory on that one.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
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post #24 of 104 Old 03-26-2013, 10:56 AM
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Hello:
is it possible that atmosphere nitrogen dissolves in water and maybe pressure is related to how fast organic nitrogen is dissolved and saturation levels reached. Organic nitrogen may be important to the micro ecology of the water column. By gassing out do you mean evaporation into the atmosphere?

NOTE: POPíS OPINION IS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH ANY FACT OR RESEARCH, IF THERE IS ANY RELATIONSHIP WITH A KNOWN FACT OR TRUTH OR SCIENCE THAT RELATIONSHIP IS ACCIDENTAL.

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post #25 of 104 Old 03-26-2013, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pop View Post

NOTE: POPíS OPINION IS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH ANY FACT OR RESEARCH, IF THERE IS ANY RELATIONSHIP WITH A KNOWN FACT OR TRUTH OR SCIENCE THAT RELATIONSHIP IS ACCIDENTAL.

pop
So what you are saying is that this is purely fictional...

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is it possible that atmosphere nitrogen dissolves in water and maybe pressure is related to how fast organic nitrogen is dissolved and saturation levels reached. Organic nitrogen may be important to the micro ecology of the water column. By gassing out do you mean evaporation into the atmosphere?
It does dissolve in water to somewhere around 20ppm at 1 atmosphere at around room temperature.

Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are far more readily dissolved in water so the N2 will not affect their respective concentrations in any easily measurable way. Seeing as air is always about 78% N2 this is a constant factor and not something that we can change and even if we bumped it up to 100% the water will not absorb much more than the atmospheric air baseline.

By off gassing I am suggesting that the concentration of N2 dissolved in the water will not increase past the approximate 20ppm level from the air. If there is a source of N2 from within the tank it will form micro bubbles of undissolved gas and escape to the surface. This is what happens when divers get the "bends" as the nitrogen gas comes out of solution in the blood stream and cannot be off gassed fast enough through respiration. It only builds up due to the increased pressure under the water. As the air is breathed (with it's 78% N2 content) it diffuses into the blood. At depth, say 90 feet, the pressure is equivalent to 4 atmospheres (this affects the air breathed by compressing it) which means that there is just more N2 per breath which will dissolve into the blood that much more readily due to the pressure.

NH3 concentration can be as high as 500,000ppm (yes that is the same as half of the water being ammonia) but this cannot happen in a natural setting as there would never be that much ammonia to be dissolved in the water. The point being that ammonia is so readily dissolved that a little N2 won't affect it.

For reference, CO2 can be as high as 1,500ppm, but again, this is not possible as a 100% pure CO2 atmosphere would be needed to do this.

There are some charts that reference gas solubility in water at this link. I knew the reasoning but didn't realize the numbers would be so large for CO2 and NH3.

Sorry, no proof reading time this time.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
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post #26 of 104 Old 03-26-2013, 01:31 PM
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Hello JDM:
The possibility of what I think or may say being fiction is acceptable notion as far as I am concerned.ÖÖ I take great joy in distorting facts and truths by omission and speculation. Have you ever left out an aspect of a truth just to make your story better? I have.

I like what you said about the bends and the build up of nitrogen in body fluids. Can this happen to fish as well? can fish have nitrogen bubbles in their blood and other fluids. If this is the case then can nitrogen build up in body fluids have an effect on the osmoregulation process or respiration.

Its been fun
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post #27 of 104 Old 03-26-2013, 01:53 PM
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I think we've sidetracked this thread Pop.

I may omit certain facts under certain circumstances but not when it comes to arguments that rely on factual representation. If the facts that I know lead me to a different conclusion due to a differing point of view or conflict with some one else's facts, I'd prefer to have it all out on the table rather than having to backtrack and reveal "hidden" facts.

Fish don't breath air, and the water has a very low N2 content so they cannot have it build up in their blood. On the other hand fish can have a "barotrauma" if they are taken from depth quickly, their swim bladders can rupture due to the same laws that cause the nitrogen to be able to bend a diver. Death from being bent is due to the nitrogen bubbles entering the heart and other damage can be caused in the sub dermal layers, muscles, lungs and other areas of good blood flow as the bubbles are captured in various veins.

Anyway. I think that wraps that topic at least in this thread.

Jeff.


Total years fish keeping experience: 7 months, can't start counting in years for a while yet.

The shotgun approach to a planted tank with an LED fixture

Small scale nitrogen cycle with a jar, water and fish food; no substrate, filter etc
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post #28 of 104 Old 03-26-2013, 05:02 PM
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Getting back to the issue of cyanobacteria, it is true that nitrogen is involved. For those wanting a brief summary, this site (UC at Berkley) has one:
Life History and Ecology of Cyanobacteria

Some aquarists advocate increasing nitrate to combat cyanobacteria, holding that it occurs when nitrate is very low. There are two problems with this. First, I and many others have tanks with near-zero nitrate and never see cyanobacteria in these. Second, and much more important, is the fact that nitrates do affect fish. There is no sense in putting fish at risk just to deal with cyanobacteria when it can be eliminated more safely.

Byron.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If youíre going to take it under your wing then youíre responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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post #29 of 104 Old 03-26-2013, 09:07 PM
@Byron - I am doing about 20-30% water changes a day to try and keep my Nitrates down. As stated previously, they spiked after i added ferts. Also as stated the cleaning out of my take was to remove ferts from substrate. Now, you say the cyano feeds off the phosphate? Is that correct? Should that be the next thing i look at testing/removing from my tank? Or should i be adding more plant? (Such as anacharis that gross SUPER fast)? Thanks for your help. I am checking out your other link now.
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post #30 of 104 Old 03-26-2013, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by xfatdannx View Post
@Byron - I am doing about 20-30% water changes a day to try and keep my Nitrates down. As stated previously, they spiked after i added ferts. Also as stated the cleaning out of my take was to remove ferts from substrate. Now, you say the cyano feeds off the phosphate? Is that correct? Should that be the next thing i look at testing/removing from my tank? Or should i be adding more plant? (Such as anacharis that gross SUPER fast)? Thanks for your help. I am checking out your other link now.
I know nothing of the link (if there is one) between phosphates and cyano. Cyano is organics-related. Unless you have high phosphates in your source water, this is not likely to be an issue.

Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
Vancouver, BC, Canada

The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian. [unknown source]

Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If youíre going to take it under your wing then youíre responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]
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