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Confused about cycling and ammonia levels

46K views 69 replies 12 participants last post by  1077 
#1 ·
Hello,

I have read many of the stickies about cycling and setting up a new aquarium, but I am still confused by the varying information I am receiving from different sources.

I went to a fish store the other night, to get some starter fish and was told:

1. Do 50% water changes every week for the first two months.
2. Feed VERY little food, every other day. After the first two months you can feed them every day.
3. There should be NO ammonia in your tank, because the Ph level of our water makes it even more deadly (it's around 7.2/7.4)


I've read a book about freshwater aquariums that says nothing about doing water changes while your tank is "setting up", and it says that ammonia may spike to 4.0 before it starts going down.

The information provided in the API Master Test Kit also says that ammonia may spike to 4.0 before going down.

The Nitrogen Cycle care sheet from Petco says that Ammonia should stay below .06 during the first two weeks and be zero after that.

I've also read in other places NOT to use any chemicals to stabilize ammonia levels, because this will supposedly DRAMATICALLY slow down the nitrogen cycle of the tank.

So, my questions are:

1. What is an acceptable ammonia level, in a new tank, with starter fish? (I would prefer not to kill any fish for the purpose of setting up my aquarium)

2. Should I do ANY water changes during the "set up" period?

3. Should I use chemicals to stabilize the ammonia?

Thanks for your help! :-D

Brian
 
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#2 ·
Youre better off using pure ammonia. It doesnt harm any fish that way. It takes less time than cycling by fish as well. You add pure concentrate, and check back every day to see what the levels are. You keeping adding ammonia as well. By about three weeks, when you add ammonia and it spikes and drops down to zero within a day, youre ready. That's the simple explanation. Look up fishless cycling for a more thorough explanation.
 
#3 ·
I already have fish in the aquarium.

By the way, the Ammonia level is between 1.0 and 2.0 this morning (can't tell the difference between the shades of green)

Nitrates and Nitrites were at 0 three days ago. I'll check them again tonight.

Any answers to my questions, with the understanding that I already have fish in the tank, would be greatly appreciated.
 
#4 ·
What size tank? andhow many and what type of starter fish have you got or planning to get?
Easiest way to Do this without harming fish,daily testing,frequent water changes etc, is to use one or two small uncooked raw shrimp (cocktail) Depending on tank size.
Place the piece of shrimp in the toe section of a pair of nylon stockings with a rock to hold it down. Toss this into the aquarium and leave it for three weeks. This piece of shrimp will feed the bacteria as it decays. after three weeks,test the tank to see that ammonia and nitrites are zero and that there are nitrAtes (prolly high nitrAtes) if levels read zero for ammonia and nitrites and nitrAtes are present, Then simply perform 60 to 70 percent water change just before you add a few (four or five )SMALL fish or one or two medium size fish. Begin changing 25 percent of the water each week from then on. NOTE. tank may begin to smell a little during the process but no fish are harmed and as mentioned , no daily testing or water changes to reduce toxins that harm the fish.
There are a couple other methods but as stated,, the above in my view,is easiest unless you know someone who has a disease free existing aquarium running and has been running for some time.
If this is the case,, you could ask them to let you have some of their filter material(ie) portion of pad,sponge ,or floss. Stick this in the filter of your tank taking care to keep the material wet in AQURIUM water while transporting to your tank. In this way,, you could add a few small fish ,depending on tank size ,and the borrowed material will jumpstart your (cycling)process and be much less harmful to the few SMALL fish you place in the tank for starter fish. Feed fish sparingly and change water anytime ammonia and or nitrites climb above.05. With borrowed material (cycling) can be done more quickly. Do be aware that the bacteria develops in direct proportion to available load(fish)in the tank. Adding too many fish,too large of fish,and overfeeding will cause ammonia and nitrites to spike for the bacteria will not be able to develop fast enough. ALWAYS best to stock slowly and wait a week between adding fish. Should give you plenty of time to research the fish that interest you to ensure that the fish all enjoy same water parameters,same pH,and are compatible with each other. Hope some of this helps and please excuse poor spelling and or punctuation. I ain't inclined to go back and fix it.:roll:
 
#5 ·
Welcome Brian, I will try pick this apart for you and hopfully answer all questions.

What happens during the necessary 'cycling' of tanks is that ammonia will be transfered into nitrite by bacteria. Ammonia is toxic to fish and will lead to death, Nitrite are also bad for fish but its not as toxic as Ammonia.
So high levels of either one will be bad news in the tank either way, the best way to control this in the process of cycling is daily water tests with kits such as offered from API. Nitrates should ideally be kept below 40ppm, above that I'd do w/c.
A normal 20-30% w/c weekly should keep these levels in check, I say should because they CAN still peak abouve tolerated levels and then a addtional w/c would be nessesary to not harm your fish.
Nitrate levels are also significantly reduced by having a well planted tank, as the plants will consume nitrates. Now I don't know if you already have plants in there or if you would consider getting some fast growing plants to help you tank to start and also have a nicely planted tank for the future?
When choosing to cycle with fish, it is important to use hardy fish, such as Zebra Danio's for example. What fish did you get, how many, what size tank do you have?
And no you do not want to add chemicals, while your ecosystem is trying to built up a natrual bacteria system to make it a stable environment for the future any add chemicals can slow this process down and/ or harm it.
 
#6 ·
#$%^!@ By the time I finished my previous post you already answered MY question. You have fish in the tank .Depending on numbers and size of tank, It may require daily or twice daily water changes to reduce ammonia levels. The levels you posted are DEADLY as the API test kit booklet clearly states. At this point,you can help yourself by not overfeeding the fish and by testing daily to see that levels do not rise above .05 for the next three weeks. Be sure and use a dechlorinator such as PRIME or AMQUEL+ that clearly say on the bottle that they detoxify CHLORINE,CHLORAMINES,and AMMONIA. And try not to add water that is too cold or too warm to the aquarium/.
 
#7 ·
I'm with you 1077...You type & type and then there new posts already by the time your done.

YES def do w/c this AM as your Ammonia is this high. Then as I said , keep checking it daily.

Sill: What tanks size do you have, what fish are in it and how many?
 
#8 ·
Hello! I agree with 1077.

Every one has their own opinion on how to cycle a tank. The people that say it is fine to let ammonia hit 4 ppm, are the people that are using the fish only to cycle, and do not care about the well being of the fish.

This is how I cycle a tank, if it can not be seeded with cycled filter media.
***test once or twice daily.
***Water changes once or twice daily, if needed to keep ammonia and nitrites under .25 ppm.
***Use Prime.
***Feed Little and only once a day, while getting readings for either ammonia or nitrites.

(most cycle fish, "hardy fish" can handle ammonia/nitrites close to .25, other sensitive fish, this would be too much.)
 
#9 ·
Wow!

Thanks for your replies. I had no idea that 2.0 ppm ammonia would be deadly. That is why I'm confused. The API kit says ammonia could peak at 4.0 during setup and so does the book I read. Neither said that level was deadly.

So I should do water changes, as needed, to keep ammonia and nitrate below .25?

I've been using a dechlorinator, but nothing for ammonia. Should I use something that treats ammonia?

I have a 10 gal with a male betta, 4 white cloud(?) minnows, a zebra danio and two ghost shrimp.

It is probably too many fish for starting, but I had the betta before I even got the 10 gallon, then I got three zebra danios. The betta killed two of them, then I got the minnows and shrimp. The betta hasn't killed anymore fish yet...

I am leaving work now and will do a water change as soon as I get home.

Doing the water changes isn't going to mess with the cycle, though?
 
#10 ·
Wow!

Thanks for your replies. I had no idea that 2.0 ppm ammonia would be deadly. That is why I'm confused. The API kit says ammonia could peak at 4.0 during setup and so does the book I read. Neither said that level was deadly.

So I should do water changes, as needed, to keep ammonia and nitrate below .25?

I've been using a dechlorinator, but nothing for ammonia. Should I use something that treats ammonia?

I have a 10 gal with a male betta, 4 white cloud(?) minnows, a zebra danio and two ghost shrimp.

It is probably too many fish for starting, but I had the betta before I even got the 10 gallon, then I got three zebra danios. The betta killed two of them, then I got the minnows and shrimp. The betta hasn't killed anymore fish yet...

I am leaving work now and will do a water change as soon as I get home.

Doing the water changes isn't going to mess with the cycle, though?
The effect ammonia has on fish depends partly on the pH and temperature; the higher the pH (more basic or alkaline) the worse ammonia is at lower levels, and worsens with higher temperatures as well. For instance, at a pH of 7.0 and a temp of 77F, an ammonia reading of 3.5 is considered dangerous and requiring immediate action (partial water change, etc). At a temp of 68 this can be at 5.0. At a pH of 7.5 and a temp of 77F, 1.2 ammonia is dangerous. In acidic water (pH below 7) it is basically harmless because ammonia converts to ammonium which is not toxic like ammonia is. But there is still the nitrite at the second stage.

I second TM's advice, monitor ammonia and nitrite daily and do a pwc of 50% if levels exceed .25 for either. Use a good water conditioner; those that detoxify ammonia (like Prime) do so by changing it to ammonium which as I said is harmless. But again, the nitrite is still going to spike.

When you do these pwc, just siphon out water from the top half, and refill with conditioned water. Don't vacuum the substrate as you might remove the bacteria. Bacteria colonize all hard surfaces in the aquarium; they are not in the water. So not cleaning the filter and substrate is advisable until the tank is cycled.

You certainly have too many fish in a new tank, but that is a done deal, so now you can only make life easier for them (and hopefully save them). Ammonia and nitrite both cause internal damage that may not surface for weeks or months.

Byron.
 
#11 ·
My 32g finished cycling about a month ago after a solid month of cycling. I'm surprised that your test kit did not mention when to do a water change. I have a nutrafin test kit for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates, and I checked levels daily for the first month and they remained very low. During that time I did a weekly water change (20%). When ammonia levels started rising above 0.6 (yeah you read right) I would do an immediate water change (20%). Same for nitrites over 0.3. The nutrafin test kits clearly state: "If the result is above 0.3 (nitrites)... immediately chage 20% of the water". I realize that every company may have a different approach to the inexact science but at least I had guidelines to go by.

Now you might say I was overzealous there but the cycle took its course and finished without ever having hazardous levels of toxins in the water which was important for me because I was too impatient to go with fishless cycling.

With a 10g, I would definitely not shy away from the daily water changes and would probably up them to 30% because the ecosystem is smaller and toxins are more contained and concentrated and are more likely to rise faster - I think (this is not scientific on my part: it's guesswork). I don't think you can hinder the cycle with water changes... but you can definitely cause havoc in your tank by adding chemicals to it to control the ammonia levels.
 
#12 ·
Thanks again for all of your advice.

Pardon my ignorance, but I still feel like I'm getting conflicting information. :???:

Some of you say DON'T use any chemicals to mess with the nitrogen cycle, yet some of you suggested Prime, which "gets rid of nitrites, nitrates and ammonia".

I bought some Prime, did a 50% water change and added the correct amount of Prime for a 10g. I tested the water shortly afterward and these are the results:

Ph: ~7.3 (same as every time I've tested it)
Ammonia: .25 (.25 is the lowest level above 0 - 0 is yellow and it progresses to dark green from there, so it could be somewhere between 0 and .25 - I don't really like the color crap. I can barely tell the difference between some of the shades, and the only major difference is between 0 and the next level.)
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
(I have not had any nitrite or nitrate show up yet.)

Is the ammonia showing up actually ammonium, as converted by Prime, or do I still have an ammonia problem?

...or does the Prime take awhile to work?

By the way, you can scratch the Danio off the list of fish. For whatever reason, my betta (I think I might name him Killer, or Dahmer) does not like danios, because he killed all three of them. I didn't actually witness him doing so, but I'm assuming that is what happened. I found the last two dead with their guts torn open. I'm assuming he not only killed them, but started to eat them. Or did he not kill them and I have another issue going on?

He still chases after the white clouds, but they seem to be much faster than the danios, because they can easily dart away from him.

Anyway, I'm ready for more advice. Do I need to do more water changes until the ammonia is undetectable? :dunno:
 
#13 ·
Prime should be used anytime you perform a water change. Products,and or chemicals other than water conditioner are not needed. Prime detoxifys harmful ammonia from chloramines in tapwater, and renders it relatively harmless ammonium which will still feed the (cycle) Water conditioners don't detoxify the ammonia for much longer than twelve to 24 hours and in tanks with fish,, Ammonia is produced constantly through respiration and or poop and urine. This is why we need healthy biological filter with colony of bacteria present to eat the ammonia produced by fish (cycling). If it were otherwise,, we would not need filters holding this good bacteria but would simply add a few drops of Prime or other water conditioner each day.
So long as there are fish in your tank ,I would highly recommend using water conditioner at each water change.
The booklet that came with the API test kit does say that any levels of ammonia can be stressful. If one reads the entire paragraph with regards to ammonia test and results. And depending on species,some suffer more quickly than others, while others do not present symptoms for some days,or weeks.
I would try and keep levels below0.25 with water changes.
 
#14 ·
I did another water change this morning, using Prime, and the result was a very light green. Lighter than .25, but not yellow, which indicates 0. The API booklet also states that ammonium will still test as ammonia, so could this just be the ammonium showing up on the test? If not, do I need to keep doing 50% changes until it is down to 0? How do any of you get test results below .25 and above 0? What test kit will give you something better than .25 gaps?
 
#15 ·
I did another water change this morning, using Prime, and the result was a very light green. Lighter than .25, but not yellow, which indicates 0. The API booklet also states that ammonium will still test as ammonia, so could this just be the ammonium showing up on the test? If not, do I need to keep doing 50% changes until it is down to 0? How do any of you get test results below .25 and above 0? What test kit will give you something better than .25 gaps?
The Prime is handling the ammonia, it detoxifies it to ammonium and this will still show as ammonia with test kits.

Monitor the nitrite, this tank is cycling so nitrite will start to rise and peak then fall to zero. The daily pwc will be critical with nitrite as Prime does not detoxify nitrite (to my knowledge). I would not worry about .25 ammonia because Prime is handling that, however, watch the fish and if signs of stress appear do a 50% pwc.

1077 may add something, I won't disagree if he does.

Byron.
 
#16 ·
The bottle of Prime says:

Removes
Chlorine, Chloramine, Ammonia

Detoxifies Nitrite & Nitrate

Provides Slime Coat

I was in a rush this morning and left the ammonia test in the test tube. When I got home from work, it was yellow, which indicates a level of 0. Is there a reason it would change to zero?

Also, I just tested again and got the following results:

Ph: 7.2
Ammonia: .25-.5(?) I have a hard time with the color differences. I'm going to attach a picture of this, so you can see it
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0+? (see picture - I put the card upside down, so the lower levels are one the bottom - it has clearly been yellow before, but now it seems to be orange-ish..would it make sense to never have any nitrites, but have nitrates start to show up?)
 

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#17 ·
Yes leaving the test solution set for longer than instructions indicate,will alter the results (inaccurate). Not leaving the test solution set long enough (5 min) will render results(inaccurate) .As stated before,,Keep ammonia levels no higher than .25.
Feed the fish sparingly,Take approx dime size amount of food and crush it to near powder with your fingers. Feed approx one half this amount ,ONCE every other day. Feeding more,,will cause ammonia levels to rise.
If you see green water in the test vial ,and you have fish in the tank,,change some water. Some might suggest that water changes slow the cycle but so long as fish are in the tank and breathing this won't be the case. I cannot add much more than I have at this point. With fish in the tank during the maturing or (cycling process),, your biggest enemy is too much food or too many fish producing ammonia that cannot be processed,, for there has yet to develop the bacteria (good kind) in sufficent mass,, to process the ammonia. In approx a week to ten days ,perhaps longer,, the ammonia will begin to drop and nitrites will begin to rise. Same thing applies with respect to water changes when levels of nitrites call for water changes as per instructions from the API test kit.The API kit is far more accurate to use than many others and is used by the majority of folks keeping fish. It is also easy to use. We can make it harder if we choose.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Thank you for making things VERY clear, for this VERY new aquarist. I really appreciate it! :notworthy:

I will follow your directions and let you know how things end up, once the tank is cycled.

I do have ONE more question, though. :roll:

I understand the instructions about the flake food, but I feed pellets to the betta. Is one pellet every other day an acceptable amount, or is that not enough?

OK, make that two more questions. :D

Should I be using enough Prime to treat the entire 10 gallons every time I do a water change, even if I do a 25% change once or twice a day?

Thanks again!!

:BIGhappy:
 
#21 ·
I've PM'd in response. Byron.
 
#22 ·
By the color of green your ammonia test came out I'd definitely do a good water change.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this: I'd check the ammonia level of your tap water (I have about 1ppm of ammonia in my tap water and it altered my test results) but if you're using the ammonia treatment (prime) it's probably ammonium...harmless to fish and beneficial to plants.

I agree about the frequent water changes...I didn't do fishless cycling (practically fishless, though) and I checked my water every day. Doing it this way (and changing water as needed) I never had an ammonia spike or a nitrite spike. (I also used Smart Start live bacteria and it worked wonders).
 
#23 ·
I hadn't checked my tap water for ammonia, so thanks for suggesting that. I did just test it, though, and the result was 0.

Not surprisingly, I'm still a little confused about the ammonia level in my tank. :demented:

I believe it has only tested at zero once, ever since then it has had some green in it. So, if the level is around .25, it is probably the ammonium and I shouldn't worry about changing the water?

I don't know if I'm color blind or what, but I have a really hard time determining which shade my water matches on the card, especially the smalll difference between .25 and .50. 0 is obvious, because it is yellow. 1.0 is obvious, because it is green. The two in between are so close (to my eyes, anyway) that I can barely tell a difference...
 
#24 ·
I just did a full water test again.

Ph: ~7.2
Ammonia: .25-.5
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0

The ammonia seems to never really change. I have done about four 50% water changes and get the same result for ammonia immediately after each water change (using Prime) and later the same day. I'm guessing/hoping that this is just the ammonium.

Are you referring to the Kordon Smart Start set with the two bottles? I was going to get this, but I read on one of the bottles that it is not compatible with a certain kind of testing kit. I asked someone at Petco if the API kit was that kind and their answer was "you don't need that, just get regular water conditioner" (i.e. "I don't know"), so I got Prime, since it was recommended. Now I know that API is a salicylate-based test, I could have gotten the Smart Start. Can I use Smart Start and Prime, or should I use one or the other. I'm willing to do anything to get the nitrogen cycle started.
 
#25 ·
I just did a full water test again.

Ph: ~7.2
Ammonia: .25-.5
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0

The ammonia seems to never really change. I have done about four 50% water changes and get the same result for ammonia immediately after each water change (using Prime) and later the same day. I'm guessing/hoping that this is just the ammonium.

Are you referring to the Kordon Smart Start set with the two bottles? I was going to get this, but I read on one of the bottles that it is not compatible with a certain kind of testing kit. I asked someone at Petco if the API kit was that kind and their answer was "you don't need that, just get regular water conditioner" (i.e. "I don't know"), so I got Prime, since it was recommended. Now I know that API is a salicylate-based test, I could have gotten the Smart Start. Can I use Smart Start and Prime, or should I use one or the other. I'm willing to do anything to get the nitrogen cycle started.
I have used (and thus will recommend) Seachem's "Stability" which is 100% live bacteria. There are some other biological supplements, just make sure they are 100% bacteria and not chemicals. They jump-start the bacteria. And yes, they can be used with Prime (the bacteria ones); Prime detoxifies ammonia by changing it to ammonium which bacteria will use.

Byron.
 
#26 ·
What seems to be generally available at both of my fish stores is Tetra Safe Start (not smart start what i said before). And by the way, I've learned to always do my research BEFORE going to the pet store, ESPECIALLY Petco/PetSmart. They never really know but they sound like they know. My LFS will sell me anything without telling me anything about the fish. They're rarely helpful, I try to know what I'm looking for (exactly) before I go. Believe me, I've learned this the hard way. And the Cycle, non-refridgerated cycling solution never did anything for my tank.

The way I use the Safe Start is that I dump half the bottle in the tank and half of it in the filter so it passes right through the bio filter. I don't know if it makes a difference or not. Or you might want to save half the bottle and add it a few days later because the bacteria will only survive if there's enough ammonia and nitrite to sustain them.

I know what you mean about the shades of green...i find the same thing between the nitrate levels. Frustrating.

Water changes don't hurt, so if you want t o get that ammonia level down (even if it is ammonium), why not do one? Do you have live plants in it? As Byron has mentioned before, plants absorb ammonium as well as some ammonia so live plants are always helpful with establishing a safe environment for fish. (Not to mention, when the plants grow, they provide lots of shelter for fish and other creatures).

Hope this helps, and be thankful that you can't tell the difference between .25ppm and .5ppm...at least it's that low! (I remember the time I tested a quarantine tank with my pleco and was horrified when for the first time the ammonia was a clear dark green, definitely all the way to 1ppm).
 
#27 ·
Thanks again for the suggestions and help.

Not surprisingly, the Petco down the street from me did not have Seachem Stability. So, I started looking at other ones. One was Nite Out, which said it contained all of the bacteria needed (all the nitro/nitra bacteria). I don't remember what the other one was called (maybe Smart Balance, or something like that), but it was what you were supposed to use before the Nite Out.

I made the unwise decision of asking someone. Of course, she didn't know, so she asked someone else. He said "Oh yeah. We use that stuff, but it smells like rotten eggs. We only do it at night cuz it stinks the whole store up so bad." He then recommended Stress Zyme or the "brand name", which is what he called the Nutrafin.

I ended up getting Nutrafin Cycle. Even though my aquarium isn't brand new, I started with the Day 1 dosing and put the Day 2 dosing in this evening.

Ever since my last water change, I've been getting the exact same test results, which were the same before the water change, too....

The ammonia is staying a very, very light green and nitrites and nitrates are zero.

I'm assuming, if I got the right stuff, that the bacteria will start "eating" the ammonia and create nitrites, which is when I should see the nitrites start to go up?

I have noticed that the water looks great and so do the fish, so everything appears good. I'm just confused, as usual, about what is going on, since nothing is changing...
 
#28 ·
By the way...

I see a lot of people mentioning LFS. What is that? An abbreviation for a store I dont know about?
I'm originally from the Midwest, but in Seattle now. The only stores I'm familiar with are Petco and PetSmart, although I did come across a Super Petz Warehouse in Augusta, GA. Everything was SOOOO cheap there. That's when I realized how much of a rip-off Petco and PetSmart are...

Ive been to The Fish Store here. Not sure if it is a chain or not. I'd like to find a local place, but Petco is only about five blocks from me.
 
#29 ·
LFS is simply an abbreviation for local fish store. So no specific chain.
Hey be blessed I don't even have Petco & Petsmart around me lol. Just search online and keep your eyes open while out & about to find a store. What I found VERY helpful and good in the past is these little bitty stores operated directly by owners that are specialized in fish only, I pref them over the big chain's any day of the week (they also seem to have a healthier fish selection IMO).
 
#30 ·
Paxton, looking through some fish classifieds here for stores for myself, came across this one, maybe it close enough to you bluesierraexotics.com
 
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