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Beginner stuff: Cycling and Water Changes

4K views 26 replies 6 participants last post by  Byron 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,

I've really enjoyed being a member of this forum. Lots of knowledge and resources!

Two questions:

1. I set up my tank about a month ago. Thought I'd do fishless cycling with plants but it didn't really work (I think I should have added ammonia but didn't). I added a bristlenose pleco before the tank cycled (I'm an amateur and the guy at the fish store told me it would be okay). Well, I researched afterward and realized it was absolutely not okay to add a pleco to an uncycled tank and I felt horrible. So I took out the pleco and put him in a little temporary tank and added six skirt tetras to my larger tank to do rapid cycling. The tank is 30 gallons with a few plants. (I should update my photos on my profile). The day I added the skirts (about a week ago) I added smart start (or something--the live bacteria). I check the water every day. The ammonia level has stayed at about .25ppm and the nitrate has been at a steady 5-10. I actually put the pleco back in the large tank yesterday because the ammonia was out of control in his little two gallon tank (even with daily 50% water changes! and he's still a baby!). So here's my question...why are the ammonia and nitrate levels so stable? Is a week long enough to see an increase in nitrate or a decrease (or increase) in ammonia? Should I do a water change at this point? I think I've made enough mistakes already that I'll have a long time before a really stable, thoroughly cycled tank.

2. This leads to my next question: Do I turn off my water filter when I do a water change? Is it better to take water from the top or syphon it from the bottom? I've never done a water change in my 30 gallon tank.

Thanks so much. What a long post!

Stephanie
 
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#2 ·
a cycle can take about a month or two to complete. what i do with my tank is whenever i get high nitrItes or ammonia at or abover .25 ppm i do a wc untill i get the levels to where i want them. the frequency and the amount will vary depending on tank size.

when u do a w/c vac from the substrate and try to get any poo debris or w/e off the bottom to reduce your nitrates and ammonia from decaying matter.
 
#3 ·
I've done fish less cycle in all my tanks (planted). It can very well be your tank had cycled in these 4 weeks empty, sometimes the peak comes & goes SO quick you won't even catch it and its so minimal sometimes you won't test it neither.
Now there's a few question I'd have to help with more answer's for you:
What are the ammonia and nitrate levels from your tap water? It may well be there's already some in your tap hence the fact they're the way they are in your tank.

No you do not need to turn off the pump when you do w/c.
Since you had the fish in there for week already. I would begin the weekly water changes and exchange about 40% of the water each week, like MoneyMitch said vacuum accessible gravel parts on the ground to remove debris. Therafter make sure you do the excerise each week (I do mine every Sat).
Meanwhile keep checking your water levels, so you can see if something goes way outta hand, eg. ammonia, then if you see this do a larger water exchange strait away (thou I kinda doubt you'll have this problem).

And on a side note, don't be so hard on your self! We've all started at some point and had to learn, no one was born as the know-it-all fish person. And lots times people in the pet store really are NO help, after all they're Sales people and that's what they wanna do sell you fish & products you may simply not need.
 
#4 ·
Oh and YES please update pictures :)
 
#5 ·
Thanks! I know my fishless cycling didn't work b/c when I bought a testing kit, the nitrates were zero...everything was zero. I think I'll do a water change tonite just for safe measure even thought the ammonia hasn't gone up at all.

Oh, and I have checked my tap water and it doesn't seem to have ammonia in it. But thanks for the tip!

One mistake I made was adding ammonia remover to my orphan tank when my pleco was in it, and I added some of that water with him (or her) when I put him back into the big tank. I'm anticipating that will throw things off just a bit. But we'll see!
 
#6 ·
If your readings hadn't gone up, I'd not do any 'extra' w/c only the regular one and then keep monitoring your readings.
It may be a lil more hassle right now for ya, but you'll do just fine. And with your next tank you'll know better what to do :)
 
#7 ·
I think Angel is probably correct, your tank is cycled. If you are getting daily nitrate readings of 5-10 it appears to be. Plants cycle tanks immediately, provided there are enough of them and not too many fish.

When did you start using the test kit and have zero readings? I'm assuming prior to this last week, when the nitrate has been 5-10.

The only puzzle is the ammonia, it has to be coming from somewhere. Are you still adding ammonia (hope not)? What is your pH? And to confirm, the tap water tests zero ammonia, correct? You test tap water before using the water conditioner. And just so we know, what brand is the water conditioner?

Byron.
 
#8 ·
Wow thanks for the advice. I just checked my tap water (one test for untreated tap water and one test for tap water treated with Aqua Plus). By the way I'm using the API test kit. They both measured almost 1ppm of ammonia! Disturbing. So then I checked my tank again and it's almost zero! Now I'm convinced my tank is cycled. I was just waiting for that last budge for the ammonia to go down to zero. I didn't test the others so I wonder if the nitrates and nitrite is stable.

In response to your question (Byron) I started testing the water when I bought the pleco about three weeks ago. At that point all levels were zero. Then I added skirts and took out the pleco, and the nitrate slowly started rising (without an ammonia spike...probably because I added live bacteria at the same time I added the skirts?).

I just can't believe I almost did a water change and my new water has quadruple the ammonia that was in the tank.

Should I, then, wait on a water change until my nitrates level goes up to make sure there are enough bacteria to "fix" the ammonia in my tap water? Or just go buy water from the water store?
 
#14 · (Edited)
Wow thanks for the advice. I just checked my tap water (one test for untreated tap water and one test for tap water treated with Aqua Plus). By the way I'm using the API test kit. They both measured almost 1ppm of ammonia! Disturbing. So then I checked my tank again and it's almost zero! Now I'm convinced my tank is cycled. I was just waiting for that last budge for the ammonia to go down to zero. I didn't test the others so I wonder if the nitrates and nitrite is stable.

In response to your question (Byron) I started testing the water when I bought the pleco about three weeks ago. At that point all levels were zero. Then I added skirts and took out the pleco, and the nitrate slowly started rising (without an ammonia spike...probably because I added live bacteria at the same time I added the skirts?).

I just can't believe I almost did a water change and my new water has quadruple the ammonia that was in the tank.

Should I, then, wait on a water change until my nitrates level goes up to make sure there are enough bacteria to "fix" the ammonia in my tap water? Or just go buy water from the water store?
This is good, and it's easy to resolve. First, the tap water is the ammonia source, and as subsequent posts from Angel have indicated, this is common in many areas, some far worse than 1ppm believe me. The answer is to use a good water conditioner that detoxifies ammonia. I just checked their website, and Nutrafin's Aqua Plus does not say it detoxifies ammonia, so I'll recommend Prime as a good one, but there are some others. Just make sure it removes/detoxifies chlorine, chloramine and ammonia, plus heavy metals [most do this latter if they do the others]. Not all water conditioners detoxify ammonia, my present one doesn't but I don't have ammonia in my tap water. Using one of these conditioners will solve the ammonia issue as far as fish health is concerned.

You will still get an ammonia reading because Prime and the others (there may be one or two that work differently) detoxify ammonia by changing it to ammonium which is basically harmless to fish, and plants need ammonium. At an acidic pH, ammonia automatically changes to ammonium, but in basic (pH above 7) water it remains ammonia; Prime and such change it to ammonium.

Most test kits read ammonia and ammonium as "ammonia" so you may still get a reading for ammonia when using Prime or whatever. Not a problem.

I mentioned plants, you have plants and they must have ammonium. In basic water they have the ability to convert ammonia (which is highly toxic to plants as well as fish) to ammonium. It is also believed they may convert nitrite back to ammonium as well. They can also use nitrate, by converting it back to ammonium, but this is more complicated so they seem to prefer using the ammonia/ammonium and possibly nitrite before nitrate. This is why I said that in a planted tank there will be no cycling issues. The plants grab the ammonia/ammonium from the first, and very little is left provided the plants are numerous and the fish are not overloading the tank. While I recommend Prime or similar, I also don't think you will have much of an issue now with a pwc, just don't overdo it (change 30%) because the plants will help you in this. Once you get Prime or whichever, do 40-50% weekly.

In a biologically established planted tank, your nitrates will always be under 20ppm unless something occurs to upset the biological balance (excessive overfeeding, many dead fish and plants, too many fish added at once, etc). My aquaria are heavily planted and heavily stocked with fish and the nitrate is always 5-10ppm, aqnd closer to 5 than 10.

Byron.
 
#10 ·
Uhm yea no...difficult one really, and I'd not do a water exchange meanwhile. Do you have another water source that could test ammonia free, eg. neighbor with a well or something?
Realistically I'd contact the water company, I'm not sure about the law's there, but you should not have ammonia in your drinking water, I mean gee I'd not wanna feed that to a baby!
I know there's some kinda 'trace' limit of ammonia where you'd consider it safe for the fish, but honestly I do not know what magic number X this is...We'll have to ask BYROOONNNNN or someone lol
 
#12 ·
I'd not 2nd guess the test kit, unless you got it used from a guy who pulled it out of the far end corner of his garage and undusted it before showing it to you :)
There's places where its common to have ammonia in the tap water, now how that's regulated & legal don't ask the country chick here LOL

I'd just really call the water company and just even outta curiosity ask them about this.

For the doggies, mine are spoiled rotten and get theirs out of the fridge where it's filtered (but like I said spoiled rotten creatures they are) LOL
 
#13 ·
#15 ·
You know I hate to say this now BUT LOL

Time & again the answer by many many people (not only me lol) to a stable healthy system is PLANTS PLANTS PLANTS. And personally I believe that's the reason I never had all these test readings, algae issues, death etc.
 
#16 ·
You know I hate to say this now BUT LOL

Time & again the answer by many many people (not only me lol) to a stable healthy system is PLANTS PLANTS PLANTS. And personally I believe that's the reason I never had all these test readings, algae issues, death etc.
I believe you're right Angel. After all, before the days of mega filters and fancy CO2 systems and mega light, aquarists maintained heavily-planted aquaria with very healthy fish. But the improvements do allow us to add more fish to our tanks now. But the best way is still nature. I frequently tell questioners on filtration that in a planted tank the plants do the filtering and keep the water clean; the filter is only to create a movement and keep it clear by removing suspended particulate matter via pads and media. Clean and clear are very different; clear water can be toxic, and clean water can be unclear. And many planted tank enthusiasts use no filters. Provided the stocking level balances the plants, this can work. But I still use and recommend a filter for the above reason.

Byron.
 
#17 ·
Yea and all that stuff is sorta in the same category for me as the invention of thousands of chemicals for any necessity that you may THINK you have in your tank....Sales reasons and profit :) I do agree with adding filter, but personally I don't agree with the whole chem set.

I'm glad you mentioned it, very true many folks leave their tank completely to itself no high tech no nothing.

You know its kinda like my neighbor feeding her veggy plants a thousand PLUS chemicals & fertilizer and what not have ya, with the result of little to no crop (and personally I'd not eat it). Mine get rainwater & dirt and I have had soooo much this year I fed all my neighbors who wanted any veggies.

Sorry to misuse your thread here Stephanie ~ End of misuse :)
 
#18 ·
Okay, let me distill this. Low nitrate = healthy, cycled tank because plants are using nitrate in addition to ammonium which they convert from ammonia (?). My ammonia reading may be coming from ammonium because some of the water I added with my pleco had ammonia detoxifier in it. I thought it was better not to detoxify the ammonia for some reason or other. With the bio filter still build up bacteria if there is ammonium?

And just to get it straight, I should still do a 30% water change (I have one brand of chorine, choramine, and ammonia detoxifier, don't know off hand but it's in a yellow bottle). What do we do water changes for anyway? And how do I know when and how much water changing to do?

You guys are awesome, I love all the feedback. It makes me feel like this whole forum is about me :0) which it is in my limited little fishy microcosm over here.

By the way I haven't looked at the water link, Angel...maybe I should brace myself!
 
#21 ·
Okay, let me distill this. Low nitrate = healthy, cycled tank because plants are using nitrate in addition to ammonium which they convert from ammonia (?). My ammonia reading may be coming from ammonium because some of the water I added with my pleco had ammonia detoxifier in it. I thought it was better not to detoxify the ammonia for some reason or other. With the bio filter still build up bacteria if there is ammonium?

And just to get it straight, I should still do a 30% water change (I have one brand of chorine, choramine, and ammonia detoxifier, don't know off hand but it's in a yellow bottle). What do we do water changes for anyway? And how do I know when and how much water changing to do?

You guys are awesome, I love all the feedback. It makes me feel like this whole forum is about me :0) which it is in my limited little fishy microcosm over here.

By the way I haven't looked at the water link, Angel...maybe I should brace myself!
I'll just follow-up and detail some of what subsequent posters have mentioned since it is very important. First on the ammonia and nitrification cycle, second on partial water changes.

In a planted tank a low nitrate reading that is consistent means the biological equilibrium is working. Other things can still go wrong, like an increase in ammonia from this or that, but most of us find that once a tank is established (3 months and beyond) it tends to be stable unless we do something to interfere with the biological equilibrium (adding too many fish, mega overfeeding, dying fish and plants, chemicals that kill off biological organisms, etc).

Ammonia is highly toxic to fish and plants and will kill both if left as ammonia. Fortunately, plants grab it and convert it to ammonium to use for food, and nitrosomonas bacteria will establish themselves and use ammonia or ammonium as food and nitrite is the result, then nitrite is used by nitrospira bacteria or perhaps plants, and nitrate results from the bacteria. Plants can use nitrate by changing it back into ammonium for food, but they "prefer" to use ammonium or ammonia for this. Whatever occurs, either way, the end result is a low nitrate reading.

Nitrosomonas bacteria use ammonia and ammonium in the nitrification process; in a planted tank the plants use most of it so the bacteria will be less than in a non-planted tank.

When you do a partial water change, if there is ammonia in your tap water, you want to use a good conditioner that will detoxify the ammonia; they do this by changing it into the less harmful ammonium. The plants and bacteria still use the ammonium, but if the ammonia was just added without the detoxifying conditioner, it would be a sudden onslaught of highly toxic ammonia and that would stress and possibly seriously damage the fish.

Now to the partial water changes. The only reason to do a pwc in a planted aquarium is to rid the tank of toxins that build up and cannot be effectively removed any other way. These toxins are urine and solid waste from the fish. No filter will remove these, period. Plants can, but it is a slow process and only effective if the fish load is very minimal and there are many plants. One author used the example of 6 or 7 neon tetras in a 55g tank that was heavily planted as being the upper limit. Most of us have far more fish in our tanks that this, so we need to do the pwc to remove the pollution. If a well-planted aquarium has a small fish load, fewer pwc's will be needed; Diana Walstad writes of doing one every few months, and that works if the fish load is not beyond the capacity of the plants and biological system. Again, most of us have more fish than the system can support without our assistance via the weekly pwc. In non-planted tanks, the pwc also dilutes/removes nitrates, but this is irrelevant in a healthy planted tank because the plants consume the ammonium, and nitrates are therefore minimal.

It is frequently said that the pwc should be more frequent with less water in order to sustain stability in the water quality. In a planted aquarium the plants are doing the major filtration and the water is, as I've indicated above, going to be stable if everything is working the way it should. So that leaves us with the pollution (toxins). The more water changed, the more pollution is removed, plain and simple.

In the November issue (2009) of TFH there is a good article on this. The author ran tests and explains why changing more water is preferable to changing less water. Pollution accumulates daily (the waste from the fish is steady) and every day an equal amount of waste is added. In other words, the toxins are increasing far more as each day goes by, so each day there is a high percentage of pollution in the aquarium. In contrast, changing 50% once a week is cutting the pollution in half, with the result that day by day the pollution will gradually increase toward the end of the week; in other words, the fish are only going to be subjected to very high levels of pollution at the end of the week just before the 50% water change, so during the previous days they are exposed to slightly less pollution that they are with a daily 10% water change. OF course, changing 50% or more each day would be ideal. But most hobbyists can find it easier to maintain a regular weekly schedule rather than a daily one.

Coming back to the water stability issue: there is no logic in maintaining more stable pollution in a tank. No one could logically dispute that reducing pollution is a benefit and the more the better. At the same time, a significant weekly water change will actually work to maintain more stability long term in the water parameters.

To sum up, a weekly pwc is the minimum in an aquarium, and changing 50% will be healthier for the fish.

Byron.
 
#19 ·
15-30% water change is average do as little or as much as you want or need to... most of us do them 1x weekly b/c fish need fresh water and the change also removes waist that the fish produce. personally i average 20% 1x weekly and its my saturday morning routine..
btw .. welcom :)
 
#20 ·
I always do about 30% each tank, each Saturday. The reason you wanna do it is simply to remove what your fish leave behind before it become too much (some "waist" is good for your plants, but too much is not good, again the balance is the key). If you don't clean at all, you'll have too much waist and your tank's bio system will collapse on the other side, if you wipe it clean & sterile like a hospital each week, again you killed all beneficial bacterial and your tank will flip.
Yellow bottle...hmm only one I know yellow is Tetra and the one I know from them does not remove ammonia.
 
#22 ·
Okie dokie, I tested my water from my PUR filter and it's pretty much ammonia-free. I did my first water change with help from you tube videos about how to do it. I tested the water again and the ammonia and nitrate levels are the same, for some reason. Maybe a 20% wc was not significant enough to alter the readings. But now I feel great that my fish have water without all that gunk that I sucked out today!
 
#23 ·
Byron in response to your post:

1. You mention plants using ammonia and ammonium...is that why I never really got a nitrite reading? It's always tested zero, even before I got any detectable nitrate readings.

2. Does the ammonia-loving bacteria (Nitrosomonas?) love ammonium as well? If I detox the ammonia, will my bacteria still build up in my bio filter? What if I just dump a few drops of Amquel (Kordon) in my tank? How will that effect the long-term chemistry of the tank?

3. I accidentally let my light on top of my filter and my filter got really hot. I am wondering if my biological fauna was killed as a result (this has nothing to do with your post, just thought I'd add it in there)

4. I don't know what my tetra waste looks like, but the pleco poop that was in my discarded water from the water change was abundant, to say the least.

5. Wouldn't a 50% wc cause thermal havoc in the tank? My tap water is so cold! It seems like it would make t he water suddenly too frigid.

6. What do you think of the wc procedure of taking only a portion of the percentage of water out, putting some new water in, taking some more out, and putting the rest in? It's not as efficient getting rid of the pollution (mathematically speaking) but seems less stressful for the biology of the tank.

Thanks for the detailed replies. I hope I can pass on all this new knowledge once I become more experienced!
 
#25 ·
Byron in response to your post:

1. You mention plants using ammonia and ammonium...is that why I never really got a nitrite reading? It's always tested zero, even before I got any detectable nitrate readings.

2. Does the ammonia-loving bacteria (Nitrosomonas?) love ammonium as well? If I detox the ammonia, will my bacteria still build up in my bio filter? What if I just dump a few drops of Amquel (Kordon) in my tank? How will that effect the long-term chemistry of the tank?

3. I accidentally let my light on top of my filter and my filter got really hot. I am wondering if my biological fauna was killed as a result (this has nothing to do with your post, just thought I'd add it in there)

4. I don't know what my tetra waste looks like, but the pleco poop that was in my discarded water from the water change was abundant, to say the least.

5. Wouldn't a 50% wc cause thermal havoc in the tank? My tap water is so cold! It seems like it would make t he water suddenly too frigid.

6. What do you think of the wc procedure of taking only a portion of the percentage of water out, putting some new water in, taking some more out, and putting the rest in? It's not as efficient getting rid of the pollution (mathematically speaking) but seems less stressful for the biology of the tank.

Thanks for the detailed replies. I hope I can pass on all this new knowledge once I become more experienced!
Re your numbered questions:

1. Yes. There is too little nitrite for the test kits we use to detect.

2. Yes to questions 1 and 2. Nil for the third; ammonia is changed into ammonium by such products, and the plants/bacteria use it.

3. Possibly, depending upon the temperature. But I wouldn't worry a second about this. The bacteria colonize every surface, and as Dr. Ted Coletti mentioned in an article on filtration in TFH, there are far more bacteria living outside the filter than inside it. Plus your plants do most of the ammonia-grabbing anyway. As I've mentioned, you can dispense with "filters" in planted aquarium simply because they cannot outperform plants. It is true that suddenly-dead bacteria create other issues, but not as much in a well-planted stable aquarium.

4. True.

5. Use a mix of hot and cold; I have for more than 15 years, and test it by hand--I take a small container of water from the tank to the sink and adjust the water temp by hand before switching the valve to fill the tank (on the Python). In my South American tanks I let the tank temp drop by about 1-2 degrees with each pwc; this simulates a tropical rainstorm, and often results in the characins or corydoras spawning the next morning. In my SE Asian tank I ensure it is slightly warmer, because I have very sensitive fish (two species of Chocolate Gouramis, dwarf loaches, kubotai loaches, and pygmy sparkling gouramis), some of which are highly prone to skin problems and parasites if water parameters change even slightly.

6. I understand the logic, but don't agree on its benefit. Removing 50% of the water at once is removing half the pollution. Absolutely nothing can be better. As for the water parameters, as I mentioned they will tend to be more stable due to the on-going effect of the plants, biological processes, etc. My tanks are at pH 6.0 and my tap water is 6.8 and after the 50% pwc the tank is around 6.4 and I have, to my knowledge, never had an issue with fish over this. This same pH change occurs every 24 hours due to the diurnal variation that is common in all planted aquaria. Hardness remains basically the same, because the tap water is zero GH and KH and the tanks are 1-2 dGH so it is very minimal.

You're welcome.

Byron.
 
#24 ·
Cannot add any more to Byrons information and so I won't. As Byron mentioned,the nitrifying bacteria will use all forms of ammonia.
As for the thermal shock you mentioned,, All new water added to the tank should be as close to water in the aquarium as we can make it to avoid the shock you mentioned. Most water faucets have some way of adjusting the temp. I have seen and heard of those who place thermometers in their change water to ensure that the temps are close.Myself,, I just use my hand to guesstimate,,not to hot,not too cold.;-)
 
#26 ·
Ok, I have to assimilate all of this information. Basically it sounds like chemistry stabilizes after a pwc so no need to get it down to an exact science.

How is your pH so low? I'm a little worried because mine is at a steady 7.8/8.0.

Byron, do you have your aquarium pix and info posted somewhere? And I'd love to know what kind of plants are in the background of your profile pic.

I have to also mention that I'm always leary of using anything but cold water from the tap...I always think of heavy metals and toxins coming from the hot tap water. If I need warm tap water I run it cold then microwave it.
 
#27 ·
Ok, I have to assimilate all of this information. Basically it sounds like chemistry stabilizes after a pwc so no need to get it down to an exact science.

How is your pH so low? I'm a little worried because mine is at a steady 7.8/8.0.

Byron, do you have your aquarium pix and info posted somewhere? And I'd love to know what kind of plants are in the background of your profile pic.

I have to also mention that I'm always leary of using anything but cold water from the tap...I always think of heavy metals and toxins coming from the hot tap water. If I need warm tap water I run it cold then microwave it.
My pH stays at 6 because my tap water is very soft, less than 1 dGH and KH. The KH (carbonate hardness) is the pH buffer, so with basically no KH the pH in an aquarium will drop due to the natural biological processes. Out of the tap the pH is 6.8 and after setting up a tank it begins to lower within a month or two (depends upon size, what plants and fish, how many, etc). I add half a cup of dolomite to the filter to stabilize it when it drops to 6 and it stays there because the dolomite adds a tad of mineral calcium) and the tank remains pH 6 and 1-2 dGH. In your case your tap water probably has a higher GH and KH (went back through this thread and didn't see these numbers) and the higher the KH the more it buffers pH keeping it steady as it comes out of the tap. This is why the chemical pH adjusters don't work and are dangerous to fish; the KH buffers the water preventing changes, and using pH adjusters keeps the pH jumping up and down and that is stressful at the least and dangerous to fish health.

There are photos of my aquaria under my "Aquariums" but the avatar pic (the Tatia perugiae) is not my tank, this photo is from a website; I had to find a small photo for the avatar.

If you use a good conditioner it removes/detoxifies chlorine, chloramine, ammonia and heavy metals. There is not going to be anything in your hot water tank beyond this. It's up to you, but I would never boil or microwave cold water/hot water. With my larger aquaria it would probably dissuade me from doing frequent partial water changes:shock:.

Byron.
 
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