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150g South American rainforest

This is a discussion on 150g South American rainforest within the Beginner Freshwater Aquarium forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Originally Posted by Byron In general I never recomend more than one species of cichlid in a given tank--and understand, here we are talking ...

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150g South American rainforest
Old 06-01-2012, 02:39 PM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by Byron View Post
In general I never recomend more than one species of cichlid in a given tank--and understand, here we are talking South American cichlids, not African rift lake which is quite another matter. It can work depending upon species and in very large tanks.

Discus or angelfish (never together) would be a nice centrepiece, with suitable shoals of characins and substrate fish.
Yes so Discus OR Angelfish, never together, for Cichlids.

You could do Bolivian Rams but the problem with that is they are smaller fish and not really centerpiece. Their small and stay low.

Discus would always be my choice.
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Old 06-02-2012, 08:06 AM   #22
 
Please be advised that I have read the previous posts. In fact, not only did I read the various tetra "Fish Profiles," but I printed them and added them to my growing notebook of information. However, some of them didn't come up when I typed in their scientific name and I didn't locate them until I discovered the "index" after the last reminder. Using Randy Carey's book, Tetras and Barbs, I was under the impression that the "core tetras," which were included on my list above had similar water requirements. So, my major decision - I thought - was to make my choices based upon visual contrast of color and behavior (schooling in synchrony, interacting as a pack/group i or schooling loosely (Mr. Carey's terms).
In fact, I grouped the tetra profiles in three catagories: 1. very easy, will tolerate a wide range of water parameters, 2. easy, does well in a slightly more narrow range of water parameters and 3. moderate, may tolerate only a narrow range of water parameters. Further, I googled each tetra for more specific information and listed their temperature, pH and hardness requirements. It looked as though the varieties I listed fit within the ranges of each. I do, however, plan on making a chart to document and verify this observation.
Once I decided to add a larger species and asked for your assistance as to whether it should be discus or angelfish, I could eliminate the smaller tetras (under two inches) from the list. What am I overlooking? Which of the varieties listed are not compatible?
Speaking of the "Queen of the Amazon," remember, my main interest is having as many varieties of tetras in sufficient numbers - usually a dozen or more - that can be included in a 150 gallon aquarium. So, I am more inclined to have five or six small discus, rather than 15.
Finally, I am looking for suggestions and ideas, but plan to use any information that I receive to help make my final decision.
Thanks to everyone for the input. I DO read andconsider all suggestions, recommendations and advice posted.
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Old 06-02-2012, 08:25 AM   #23
 
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:32 AM   #24
 
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Originally Posted by lesandjill View Post
Please be advised that I have read the previous posts. In fact, not only did I read the various tetra "Fish Profiles," but I printed them and added them to my growing notebook of information. However, some of them didn't come up when I typed in their scientific name and I didn't locate them until I discovered the "index" after the last reminder. Using Randy Carey's book, Tetras and Barbs, I was under the impression that the "core tetras," which were included on my list above had similar water requirements. So, my major decision - I thought - was to make my choices based upon visual contrast of color and behavior (schooling in synchrony, interacting as a pack/group i or schooling loosely (Mr. Carey's terms).
In fact, I grouped the tetra profiles in three catagories: 1. very easy, will tolerate a wide range of water parameters, 2. easy, does well in a slightly more narrow range of water parameters and 3. moderate, may tolerate only a narrow range of water parameters. Further, I googled each tetra for more specific information and listed their temperature, pH and hardness requirements. It looked as though the varieties I listed fit within the ranges of each. I do, however, plan on making a chart to document and verify this observation.
Once I decided to add a larger species and asked for your assistance as to whether it should be discus or angelfish, I could eliminate the smaller tetras (under two inches) from the list. What am I overlooking? Which of the varieties listed are not compatible?
Speaking of the "Queen of the Amazon," remember, my main interest is having as many varieties of tetras in sufficient numbers - usually a dozen or more - that can be included in a 150 gallon aquarium. So, I am more inclined to have five or six small discus, rather than 15.
Finally, I am looking for suggestions and ideas, but plan to use any information that I receive to help make my final decision.
Thanks to everyone for the input. I DO read andconsider all suggestions, recommendations and advice posted.
I was just making sure you had read through it. My apologies.

Discus prefer warm temperatures of over 80F, while the angels have a little bit wider temperature range from 76 to 86F. Therefore angels give you a bit more options as to the tetras you can keep.

This is the main concern when stocking the tank with these main fish. Their water parameters must be taken into account when stocking the rest of the fish.

I would first pick Angel or Discus. Angels are naturally more aggressive and will be more likely to eat smaller tetras. From there we could move onto selecting the tetras to go with them. This way you can work the tetras schools based on the required parameters.

5-7 Small discus would allow you to have many more smaller schools of tetras, as you desire. That is a good idea. With this many discus you could probably get away with 4 schools of about 20-22 fish or 5 schools of 18-20 fish. I would not go under 15. This is mainly because you have a 150 gallon tank. Fewer numbers might cause the schools to get lost in the giant crowd and and size of the tank. I would suggest 18 to 20 to create a BEAUTIFUL schooling effect. At the least 15. With that said I think you can pick 4-5 species of tetras and 1-2 species of substrate fish.

This would stock the tank completely IMO.

So are you set on discus? If so, we can help you find some more species of tetras that are compatible.

Last edited by Termato; 06-02-2012 at 09:34 AM..
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Old 06-02-2012, 11:56 AM   #25
 
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Originally Posted by lesandjill View Post
Please be advised that I have read the previous posts. In fact, not only did I read the various tetra "Fish Profiles," but I printed them and added them to my growing notebook of information. However, some of them didn't come up when I typed in their scientific name and I didn't locate them until I discovered the "index" after the last reminder. Using Randy Carey's book, Tetras and Barbs, I was under the impression that the "core tetras," which were included on my list above had similar water requirements. So, my major decision - I thought - was to make my choices based upon visual contrast of color and behavior (schooling in synchrony, interacting as a pack/group i or schooling loosely (Mr. Carey's terms).
In fact, I grouped the tetra profiles in three catagories: 1. very easy, will tolerate a wide range of water parameters, 2. easy, does well in a slightly more narrow range of water parameters and 3. moderate, may tolerate only a narrow range of water parameters. Further, I googled each tetra for more specific information and listed their temperature, pH and hardness requirements. It looked as though the varieties I listed fit within the ranges of each. I do, however, plan on making a chart to document and verify this observation.
Once I decided to add a larger species and asked for your assistance as to whether it should be discus or angelfish, I could eliminate the smaller tetras (under two inches) from the list. What am I overlooking? Which of the varieties listed are not compatible?
Speaking of the "Queen of the Amazon," remember, my main interest is having as many varieties of tetras in sufficient numbers - usually a dozen or more - that can be included in a 150 gallon aquarium. So, I am more inclined to have five or six small discus, rather than 15.
Finally, I am looking for suggestions and ideas, but plan to use any information that I receive to help make my final decision.
Thanks to everyone for the input. I DO read andconsider all suggestions, recommendations and advice posted.
If you could post your final chart I would be pleased to offer any suggestions if I should see issues. Concerning the parameters, GH and pH will be relatively similar obviously, but temperature can vary quite a bit. Then there is the issue of having sedate fish (cichlids of any species) as some of the characins will fin nip these, or annoy them with over-active swimming. Not all tetra behave the same. These issues jumped out at me in your first post mentioning so many species. Other aspects of putting together a community involve the environment: water flow is important (forest fish tend to prefer quiet water, but some fish will need a current), light is crucial for some species, wood/rock/plants may be relavant.

A comment on internet information. The reliability depends upon the source; as other members frequently mention, there is some quite conflicting data out there, and it can't all be accurate. I wrote most of the freshwater fish and plant profiles on TFK and I do extensive research among acknowledged sources when compiling the data. The water parameters and other information is reliable because it is data that is agreed upon by biologists, ichthyologists and similar. So you can feel safe here.

Byron.

Last edited by Byron; 06-02-2012 at 11:58 AM..
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Old 06-02-2012, 07:29 PM   #26
 
Termato, this sounds closer to the plan I have envisioned. Thanks for your input. The discus and angelfish each have their pros and cons as it applies to the South American rainforest biotope aquarium I hope to have setup, so I had to decide between them and chose adding five or six, small discus. Can you suggest a variety that would best fit this habitat? Four schools of 18-20 sounds like a good plan as I have not included the upper level (hatchetfish and pencilfish) and the lower level (corydoras, plecos) inhabitants.
Now, having made that decision, I am going to try and post my chart for his consideration.
I would like very much for your comments and corrections. Once the information is authenticated, I can than proceed with my selection of tetras. Please be advised that I plan to expand the chart to include some additional factors that might be useful. Should you think of any, kindly feel free to mention them.

Core Tetra Temp pH U]Hardness[/u]

green tetra (Aphyocharax rathbuni) 72 - 80F 6.5 - 7.8 7 - 20
blue tetra (Boehlkea fredcochui) 72 - 82F 5.6 - 7.6 1 - 15
rummy nose tetra (Hemmigrammus bleheri) 75 - 85F 6.0 - 8.0 2 - 12
glowlight tetra (Hemmigrammus erthrozonus) 75 - 82.5 6.0 - 8.0 5 - 12
pretty tetra (Hemmigrammus pulcher) 72 - 78 5.0 - 8.0 1 - 12
blue king tetra (Impaichthys kerri) 76 - 80 5.5 - 7.0 1 - 12
ornate tetra (Hyphessobrycon bentosi) 75 - 82 5.5 - 7.0 2 - 10
Copland's tetra (Hyphessobrycon copelandi) 75 - 82 4.5 - 5.5 0 - 4
bleeding heart tetra (Hyph. erythrostigma) 72 - 77 6.0 - 6.5 4 - 8
black neon tetra (Hyph. herbertaxelrodi) 73 - 81 5.5 - 7.5 4 - 8
black phantom tetra (Hyph. megalopterus) 72 - 82 6.0 - 7.5 2 - 20
rosy tetra (Hyphessobrycon rosaceus) 75 - 82 6.0 - 7.5 5 - 19
yellow phantom tetra (Hyph. rosecus) 74 - 80 5.5 - 7.5 1 - 20
lesser bleeding heart tetra (Hyph. socolofi) 72 - 77 6.0 - 7.2 1 - 10
red phantom tetra (Hyphessobrycon sweglesi) 68 - 77 5.5 - 7.5 4 - 20
cardinal tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi) 73 - 81 4.0 - 6.0 0 - 10
red-eye emperor tetra (Nematobrycon lacortei) 73 - 80 5.6 - 7.2 1 - 12
emperor tetra (Nematobrycon palmeri) 72 - 77 5.0 - 7.5 5 - 12
neon tetra (Paracheirodon innesi) 68 - 80 5.0 - 7.0 1 - 10
green neon tetra (Paracheirodon simulans) 73 - 80 4.0 - 6.5 0 - 8

I tried to use reliable online sites for the information above but, as Byron mentioned above, I'm sure that reliability and conflicting information is a problem. That's why I was disappointed that Byron didn't include this (specific) critical information in the "Fish Profiles." Hopefuilly, the data is correct and I typed it in the proper space (After a while, I was seeing numbers!!!!). It is obvious that the inclusion of discus will result in eliminating the smaller-sized tetras, perhaps those under two inches, and tetras whose temperature requirements are under 80F.
I look forward to any con structive suggestions, recommendations or comments that might assist me in the completion of this project.
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Old 06-02-2012, 08:01 PM   #27
 
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Quote:
I tried to use reliable online sites for the information above but, as Byron mentioned above, I'm sure that reliability and conflicting information is a problem. That's why I was disappointed that Byron didn't include this (specific) critical information in the "Fish Profiles." Hopefuilly, the data is correct and I typed it in the proper space (After a while, I was seeing numbers!!!!).
I'm a bit puzzled by this statement. The water parameters [GH, pH and temp] are included for every fish species in our profiles, under "Ideal Water Parameters for...[fish name]" which is the last category.
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Old 06-02-2012, 08:09 PM   #28
 
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Originally Posted by lesandjill View Post
Termato, this sounds closer to the plan I have envisioned. Thanks for your input. The discus and angelfish each have their pros and cons as it applies to the South American rainforest biotope aquarium I hope to have setup, so I had to decide between them and chose adding five or six, small discus. Can you suggest a variety that would best fit this habitat? Four schools of 18-20 sounds like a good plan as I have not included the upper level (hatchetfish and pencilfish) and the lower level (corydoras, plecos) inhabitants.
Woa...how many total fish are you planning? the 4 schools pluss the hatchets and pencils AND the corys?

You can have 4 schools, if the hatchets and pencils are picked, then you can pick 2 more species.

If you do cories you might want to keep them between 8-10 so as to not overstock. One Pleco only, if Bristlenose of smaller species you can get away with a small group if you want to sacrifice the cories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lesandjill View Post
Now, having made that decision, I am going to try and post my chart for his consideration.
I would like very much for your comments and corrections. Once the information is authenticated, I can than proceed with my selection of tetras. Please be advised that I plan to expand the chart to include some additional factors that might be useful. Should you think of any, kindly feel free to mention them.

Core Tetra Temp pH U]Hardness[/u]

blue tetra (Boehlkea fredcochui) 72 - 82F 5.6 - 7.6 1 - 15
rummy nose tetra (Hemmigrammus bleheri) 75 - 85F 6.0 - 8.0 2 - 12
glowlight tetra (Hemmigrammus erthrozonus) 75 - 82.5 6.0 - 8.0 5 - 12

ornate tetra (Hyphessobrycon bentosi) 75 - 82 5.5 - 7.0 2 - 10
Copland's tetra (Hyphessobrycon copelandi) 75 - 82 4.5 - 5.5 0 - 4

MAYBE - black neon tetra (Hyph. herbertaxelrodi) 73 - 81 5.5 - 7.5 4 - 8
black phantom tetra (Hyph. megalopterus) 72 - 82 6.0 - 7.5 2 - 20
rosy tetra (Hyphessobrycon rosaceus) 75 - 82 6.0 - 7.5 5 - 19


I tried to use reliable online sites for the information above but, as Byron mentioned above, I'm sure that reliability and conflicting information is a problem. That's why I was disappointed that Byron didn't include this (specific) critical information in the "Fish Profiles." Hopefuilly, the data is correct and I typed it in the proper space (After a while, I was seeing numbers!!!!). It is obvious that the inclusion of discus will result in eliminating the smaller-sized tetras, perhaps those under two inches, and tetras whose temperature requirements are under 80F.
I look forward to any con structive suggestions, recommendations or comments that might assist me in the completion of this project.
The ones I left are the options I think you can choose from. The rest would require slightly colder waters. You could try it but I don't recommend it.

Last edited by Termato; 06-02-2012 at 08:11 PM..
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Old 06-03-2012, 05:39 AM   #29
 
Sorry Byron, I did print out all of the species you had profiles of from Randy Carey's book, Tetras and Barbs, which I used as a species guide. I should have clarified my statement in that listing the ranges (minimum and maximum) for pH and GH (I learned something new) might have been even more helpful for a relative beginner such as myself. Or maybe its just me, who needs to have things spelled out exactly in black-and-white! In either case, I apologize for any misunderstanding as I have them in my notebook among the growing accumulation of reference materials that I plan to re-read during this rainy weekend. As I learn more, they take on greater meaning and become even more useful as a resource. In fact, I'm planning to re-read them today, as we are experiencing a rain-filled weekend.
I'm interested in knowing whether or not you found the chart accurate and, if not, which listings need to be changed? More importantly, in your valued opinion, do you see any value in having and using such a chart as a reference? I plan to look the figures over again and re-check their accuracy now that I have a clearer mind this morning. I would not be surprised if I made some mistakes in transferring the information (Can I edit the post if that is the case?).
Based upon your post, Termato, I may have to reconsider the discus and go with four-six of one or two of the dwarf cichlids, such as Dicrossus filamentosus (checkerboard cichilid) or Apistogramma pandurini. I was thinking of perhaps a dozen hatchetfish and a dozen pencilfish - maybe a dozen each of two different varieties of pencilfish, a dozen corydoras (melini?) and perhaps one pleco. Are you saying that four or five groups of 12-18 tetras would be too much for the 150 gallon tank? If so, how would you par down the numbers? Do you think that using a dozen of this and a dozen of that would be too visually boring and that I should vary the number of each fish? And I haven't even gotten to the selection of plants!
Bryon and any other experienced aquarist out there is welcome - and encouraged - to chime in with your opinion, suggestions and ideas. I would certainly like to get all of my mistakes corrected - and I'm sure I've made many - beforethe installer comes in mid-June to set up this 150-gallon South American biotope aquarium! N.B. I'm using an erasable ballpoint to plan the fish and plant list for a reason.
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Old 06-03-2012, 09:18 AM   #30
 
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Originally Posted by lesandjill View Post
Sorry Byron, I did print out all of the species you had profiles of from Randy Carey's book, Tetras and Barbs, which I used as a species guide. I should have clarified my statement in that listing the ranges (minimum and maximum) for pH and GH (I learned something new) might have been even more helpful for a relative beginner such as myself. Or maybe its just me, who needs to have things spelled out exactly in black-and-white! In either case, I apologize for any misunderstanding as I have them in my notebook among the growing accumulation of reference materials that I plan to re-read during this rainy weekend. As I learn more, they take on greater meaning and become even more useful as a resource. In fact, I'm planning to re-read them today, as we are experiencing a rain-filled weekend.
I'm interested in knowing whether or not you found the chart accurate and, if not, which listings need to be changed? More importantly, in your valued opinion, do you see any value in having and using such a chart as a reference? I plan to look the figures over again and re-check their accuracy now that I have a clearer mind this morning. I would not be surprised if I made some mistakes in transferring the information (Can I edit the post if that is the case?).
Based upon your post, Termato, I may have to reconsider the discus and go with four-six of one or two of the dwarf cichlids, such as Dicrossus filamentosus (checkerboard cichilid) or Apistogramma pandurini. I was thinking of perhaps a dozen hatchetfish and a dozen pencilfish - maybe a dozen each of two different varieties of pencilfish, a dozen corydoras (melini?) and perhaps one pleco. Are you saying that four or five groups of 12-18 tetras would be too much for the 150 gallon tank? If so, how would you par down the numbers? Do you think that using a dozen of this and a dozen of that would be too visually boring and that I should vary the number of each fish? And I haven't even gotten to the selection of plants!
Bryon and any other experienced aquarist out there is welcome - and encouraged - to chime in with your opinion, suggestions and ideas. I would certainly like to get all of my mistakes corrected - and I'm sure I've made many - beforethe installer comes in mid-June to set up this 150-gallon South American biotope aquarium! N.B. I'm using an erasable ballpoint to plan the fish and plant list for a reason.
Just out of curiosity. Why would you have to reconsider the Discus? Is this beause you cannot keep as many schools of smaller fish?

How many TOTAL schools of fish do you want swimming through the tank? Not including cories or substrate fish, but ALL upper, mid and lower level non bottom feeder or algae eating fish.

I can give you a very good range of what to stock the tank with if you give me that information.
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