Got them YAY!

dmuddle

Today I went to the local petstore to have a look for hermit crab stuff and as I walked out I looked at the fish for sale. They had finally imported more species of gouramis. So now they have pearls, opalines, honey (massive), and cobalt and flames (which they have always had). So I walked out with 2 opalines to my delight. Now my gourami tank needs more plants and ornaments to be complete.

ladayen

You do realize gourami's don't generally get along well? It's probably not the best idea to have a "gourami tank".

Oh dear... I just looked at your aquarium log, is this still accurate? 3 Cobalt Blue Dwarf Gouramis, 1 flame red Dwarf Gourami (more to come), 2 kissing gouramis, 1 long finned bristlenose, a gold spotted pleco in a 20g tank? In addition to the 2 Opalines you just bought?

dmuddle

Sure is and I didn't wanna hear some pansy ass stuff that the tank is too small. They are happy, the kissing gouramis are leaving soon, they aren't rightfully mine. I rarely fight, i know what im doing, I haven't had a death yet and the tank has nearly been set up for a year. I don't wanna be told that I'm doing something wrong when everything is right.

dmuddle

And if I had a bigger tank, I would put them in it. You don't know my situation so don't presume that my last tank wasn't damaged and that they are in the tank tempararily!

Byron

This needs a response. Members will have varying opinions and are welcome to share them on this forum, but this forum is also a teaching tool to assist all of us, and there are frequently beginning aquarists looking for information. Promoting irresponsible fish care will and should be challenged.

I'm not going to get into the technical stuff about tank sizes and compatibility because that is all clear enough in the profiles if you care to read them. It is your comments like "they are happy...I know what I'm doing...I haven't had a death yet...i don't want to be told that I'm doing something wrong when everything is right" that must be addressed.

Do you assume everything is fine and just wait for fish to start dying before changing? How do you know they are happy? And with respect, you clearly do not know what you are doing. You are subjecting these fish to considerable stress. This is an issue misunderstood by many, especially those new to the hobby, and one on which I am preparing an article. So i will simply copy over paragraphs taken out-of-context from my present draft.

The effects of stress on fish are very complicated physiologically, and are often subtle. There may or may not be external signs discernible to us—it can continue for weeks and even months until the fish “suddenly dies.”
Short-term stress will cause an increase in heart rate, blood pressure, and respiration. The fish can only maintain these altered states for a short period of time before they will either adapt or (more often) the stress will become chronic; at this stage the hormone cortisol is released, which is responsible for many of the negative health effects associated with stress.
Chronic stress impacts negatively on fish growth, digestion, and reproduction. Perhaps worst of all, chronic stress will significantly lower the ability of the immune system to respond effectively and fully. This lowered immune response, along with a deteriorated slime coat, is what allows parasites, bacteria, pathogens, protozoans and fungi to infect the fish and cause disease.
Everything outside the required environmental or behavioral needs of the particular fish species causes stress. Here are a few of these:

1) Elevated ammonia, nitrite and nitrate;
2) Water parameters that are outside the fish’s natural habitat—GH, pH, temperature, salinity—or a sudden and significant fluctuation in any one of these;
3) Lack of hiding places;
4) overhead tank lighting;
5) water current—too much or too little, depending upon the fish species;
6) Lack of enough fish to provide schooling according to the species;
7) Inadequate tank size;
8) Overstocking of tank;
9) Harassment from other fish.

dmuddle

I understand your point but, you have to realise Byron that when the fish are all juveniles and the kissings are soon to leave, and the fact that I am getting a big enough tank you mustn't jump to conclusions. That is one thing I am trying to get across, you need to stop jumping to conclusions. The fish aren't aggressive to one another, most are juvenile, There are plenty of hiding spaces, and I really must say that I HAVE STUDIED ABOUT MY FISH!

dmuddle

[quote=Byron;1044476]Do you assume everything is fine and just wait for fish to start dying before changing? How do you know they are happy? And with respect, you clearly do not know what you are doing.

Okay, I understand you are trying to help. No, I do not wait for a death to start changing the tank and parameters. They are happy because their colours are flaring, as they are supposed to be. They eat, build their nests, and excrete faecal matter in the correct manner at a proper rate. I know how to tell, I change water when there is something wrong with it.

Tazman

Juvenile or not they still need a suitable environment to develop in and being in a crowded tank is not going to give that to them.

Would you keep a baby in a small area because you cannot provide for it...simple answer NO, why should fish be different? Answer again, WE treat them differently because they cannot answer back and tell us when something is wrong.

You make a commitment to care for your fish to adulthood once you purchase them...you cannot just drop them because they have got to large, imagine doing that to a baby, sorry, it got too big, I dont want it....

Never assume that something might happen, ie getting a bigger tank, I mentioned in another post, about purchasing a glass panel for a 500g fish tank I was planning on building for a massive cichlid colony...the glass was a steal and I simply could not turn it down. Well, 2 years later and the pane is still in my garage waiting for the tank to be built...

Point being, we can all say we want a bigger tank, I have a 29g saltwater tank running for not even 6 months yet!, already am thinking about a larger one...with the extra tank size comes the added cost of upgrading equipment as well...what turns out to be a buy the tank suddenly gets into well I need X,Y,Z as A,B,C I have for my tank now will not work.

Keep a close eye on the water parameters and signs of illness etc and yes it could potentially work, with the general knowledge of not only this community but other forums as well, in hindsight it will likely cause more problems than simply stocking the tank appropriate for the size NOW.

As Byron mentioned, there are signs effecting the fish which you cannot observe directly until it is too late sometimes, that is why we need to provide an environment suitable for the care of the fish regardless of what state of development they are at.

Fish aggression is not always visible to us, you might observe it but 90% of the time you will not.
My male Auratus when I got it was a juvenile, that didnt stop it having a chase with my fully grown Demansoni Male when it went into the tank... the Demansoni was number 1 in the tank pecking order by a long way...along comes the Auratus at under half it's size and bam...pecking order changed. To the day I sold them, it was still number 1 but being harassed for top spot by it's own son!

Fish generally calm down when we are in the room as A) they associate us with feeding time B) our larger presence can spook them....now when we leave things happen we may not see.

Am not saying that this tank will NOT work period but will just need careful monitoring to make sure nothing happens, and to avoid injury, illness or deaths. If your fish dies, you wasted your money...another reason we provide a suitable environment for them to sustainably live...I hate to use it but Africa is a prime example of this in humans, many many deaths occur because basic humanitarian qualities we associate with every single day are not available to them, clean water...same example can be used for us maltreating fish and not providing for them.

While I respect your comments and hope that you will respect mine, asking a question on a public forum will provide varied responses, some of which will be good and some will be bad...we chose to join here to share our knowledge be it personal or scientifically proven to other members. Being obviously a fish forum, we are here to provide care and assistance in bringing up our chosen species.

My apology for this long post...

Byron

Changing water should be regular, every week, 30-50% of the tank (volume depends upon the tank's biology), again waiting for something to go wrong or show up in a test is too late, by then the damage is done. And you have missed the point that stress can be present with no external signs at all, and continue for weeks. You simply can't run any aquarium on this basis. You have to understand the science and follow it, not your own thinking. For one thing, fish secrete pheromones which other fish in the tank read; we can't see them. It's comparable to putting a cat in a closed room with a vicious dog chained in the corner. The dog can't actually reach the cat, but the mere presence of the dog will stress the cat because it "reads" the dog's intentions. This happens in fish too. The only responsible action is not to place the fish in such situations, period.

dmuddle

Okay thanks, I understand that you guys are trying to help but at the moment I have got the best I can give them. My cousin is giving me his tank soon, it is something like 45 gallons.