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Removed my UGF and all my rocks 4-5 weeks ago.... tank is still cycling... help

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Removed my UGF and all my rocks 4-5 weeks ago.... tank is still cycling... help
Old 10-31-2013, 02:16 PM   #31
 
Candymancan:

The best idvice i get and receive is simply if it ain 't broke don't fix it.

plants will prevent ammonia spikes.

regradless of what ever else is going on.

Sounds like your tank just needs to adjust.

FWIW a person on several of these boards Paul_B has a reef tank that has been running for 40 years. Paul uses old school and many things that are poo-hooed by modern methods. One of which is the use of a reverse flow under gravel filter. Sure that is a marine tank. And sure Fw is different. But still UGFs have fallen out of favor today.

Paul just continues to have a successful tank anyway.


my .02
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:30 PM   #32
 
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Well if you do want plants they'll root into the UGF eventually decreasing its effectiveness unless you just do floaters. But you have some really pretty plants ( I have most of the same ones too) and I would hate to see you give that up. Actually the fluval filters are my fav on HOBs lol.. But I prefer my eheim canisters above all. However direction you choose to go the ammonia is already there ... So I'd pick the filter you want most and commit to the cycle roller coaster that you're already on. If you choose to stick with your HOB it can't hurt to grab some media out of your 55 if you enough media in there to spare. At your high ammonia levels though I wouldn't even expect that to make an instant cycle .. Just speed it up :-/


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Old 10-31-2013, 03:48 PM   #33
 
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Well if you do want plants they'll root into the UGF eventually decreasing its effectiveness unless you just do floaters. But you have some really pretty plants ( I have most of the same ones too) and I would hate to see you give that up. Actually the fluval filters are my fav on HOBs lol.. But I prefer my eheim canisters above all. However direction you choose to go the ammonia is already there ... So I'd pick the filter you want most and commit to the cycle roller coaster that you're already on. If you choose to stick with your HOB it can't hurt to grab some media out of your 55 if you enough media in there to spare. At your high ammonia levels though I wouldn't even expect that to make an instant cycle .. Just speed it up :-/


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Yea when I get some more money if I still have ammonia spikes if my cycle ever finishes that is lol.. Then I was thinking of buying some sort of close filters with those cylinder rocks in them to help gain MORE BB... The problem with a hexagon is I can only fit a HOB filter that has 1 filter pad.. Not a duel like you can rectangle filters.. I COULD mount another filter on another pane of glass but due to way I have my lights setup on the tank (3x24 inch T8 fixtures on the 20 inch wide tank) I cant fit but 1 HOB in the back and that's it.

I would use the filters from the 55G, but that tank has planaria worms in it and my 27g doesn't... I would take more filters from the 30g.. but that tank is recovering from a columnaris outbreak that I just finished medicating and I have no seeded filter media in that tank atm as I just put new filters in yesterday..

But yea Im not gonna tear the tank up to put the UGF back in.. and I think the problem me using floramax rocks... they might be tiny enough to get through the filter and go on the bottom... Im not sure I'll scoop some out and test it... However like you said my plants look beautiful specially my neseae and my telethara and If I rip them up im sure itll cause them shock... Because they are at the point now where they are completetly settled in the tank growing exceptionally fast and growing lots of roots on the stems and so forth

Can you give me a name or link to a not so expensive filter that I could use that isn't a HOB ? You know like a canister filter.. I don't know much about them
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Old 10-31-2013, 04:52 PM   #34
 
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What you seem to be failing to understand is that there are MANY ways to keep fish - it's a continuum. Just like in golf when putting, there are a number of different lines one can take and get the ball in the hole - with the appropriate amount of power applied to the shot. You can have a slow roller that runs true to the slope, you can power the ball to the hole negating the slope, and everything inbetween.
There are setups that don't need filters, and there are setups that require massive filtration systems, and everything inbetween. For the little itty bitty community fish that people often keep in their (usually lightly stocked) planted tanks, the importance of a filter is probably minimal at best. However, some people keep big fish, or like to heavily stock their tanks (heavy is relative). There's a reason those people believe in big filtration. If you run a setup where you don't feel you need a filter, then you should take advice from people who run those kinds of tanks. If you run a setup that requires heavy filtration, then you should take advice from people who are familiar with those types of setups. People run into trouble when they start cherry picking advice, following the parts they want and disregarding the parts they don't. This is almost always due to a failure to recognize the differences in fishkeeping styles and how they relate to their tank.
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Last edited by Chesh; 11-01-2013 at 07:49 AM..
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:34 PM   #35
 
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Jaysee you totally lost me with the golf analogy

Antywho....
Canisters. These are my all time fav ones.just expect to come back here with a post like "How the heck do you put this together?" The English instructions are essentially *Put together, plug in and good luck! * or at least thats how I read them. But they are awesome. you could get away with the 2213 on yours but maybe the 2215 or2217 would better suit your stocking...up to you.
(I'm mad, my first 2217 was about$100 more then on here !)
Eheim Classic Plus Canister Filters | thatpetplace.com

These are also all pretty good but you have to buy all your media and even the spray bar separately ..not cool! But I have the XP XL and after getting over the issue with buying the rest of it piecemeal it is actually really good. Size you choose is all you..
Rena FilStar XP-Series Canister Filters | thatpetplace.com

or just cruise the site and pic one o come back to see if anyone has experience with which one you want to see what they think of it.

Last edited by Chesh; 11-01-2013 at 07:50 AM..
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:40 PM   #36
 
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That's because you don't golf agent point was that there are many means to the same end. Very, very few things in fishkeeping are absolute.
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:56 PM   #37
 
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Originally Posted by jaysee View Post
That's because you don't golf agent point was that there are many means to the same end. Very, very few things in fishkeeping are absolute.
I might be blonde but I got it lol.. Even without knowing golf.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:56 AM   #38
 
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Back on track, guys. . .

I have taken the liberty of moving this thread into the Advanced Freshwater Discussion area of the forum. - it looks as if most of the members commenting here are 'old pros.' You experienced types do tend to fall into debate more often than not! >.<

CM, if you feel your original question has been answered, and wish to seek additional input on filtration and/or filter media, I suggest you start a new thread here in the Advanced Freshwater Discussions area.

Please be nice, guys - we all have had our own experiences and opinions. Though they often seem not to agree. . . well. . .respect, neh? Lets be sure to keep things friendly.

So lets get back onto the topic of THIS thread, shall we?

Last edited by Chesh; 11-01-2013 at 09:05 AM..
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:05 AM   #39
 
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Originally Posted by candymancan View Post
The problem is I have had 4-8PPM of ammonia in the tank for 4 going on 5 weeks now.. I haven't had a single fish die, nor any fish gasping for air or struggling or red gills and the reason why is because I put a capful of prime in the tank every 24 hours... But its getting expensive... I have gone through an entire 500ml bottle.. and I cant afford this... But then I cant afford replacing my fish either..
*Please see post #1 for additional details*




The first responder, Boredomb, suggested upping the water changes - and I agree with this. I'm not sure if you ever responded with your water change routine, except to state that you don’t vac, but if you are not doing frequent water changes on this tank, I think you may want to start.

I'm really not the best person to try to explain this, and a newbie tanker at that(!), but I’ll try. . . please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - I'm terrible at chemistry!

To the best of my understanding, and based ONLY on what I have read. . .

The bacteria in our tanks, I think(?), uses carbon as fuel source, so you will find that the KH (carbonate hardness) in a cycling tank can drop rather quickly. This is especially true in situations where the water is soft, and has a low KH to begin with. A low KH will allow the pH to shift far more easily. Combined with that, as the bacteria converts ammonia into nitrItes, hydrogen ions are released. These hydrogen ions have a direct effect in lowering the pH in the tank, and if the KH is low enough to allow it, the change in pH can be fairly rapid. When the pH drops too low, the bacteria goes dormant, and stops working, thus stalling the cycle.

This *USUALLY* applies to stalled cycles in which people are using bottled ammonia to cycle their tanks (we don't typically see ammonia levels this high otherwise), and why the usual recommendation for fishless cycling using ammonia is put somewhere between 2-4ppm. You stated in your OP that your ammonia levels are between 4-8PPM.

You have a fish-in cycle right now on a tank that is heavily stocked. I'm not positive about this, but my theory is that since the ammonia levels have started out so high to begin with - the bacterial colony needed to start the cycle may not have been able to form - thus stalling your cycle before it even began, essentially. When was the last time you checked the water hardness levels in your tank? Are you seeing any flux?

The happy side of this is that if your pH is too low, toxic ammonia is converted into ammonium, which doesn't harm the fish. My understanding is that Prime does the same thing - either way, it explains why your fish are okay - but have no idea what the long-term effects would be if this situation is allowed to continue. . .

So, again I recommend that you go back to the basics - water changes. You'll want to do these slowly, and test as you go - rapid flux in pH will hurt your fish (I think we all agree on that one?) I'd recommend several smaller water changes a day (using Prime) to get and keep the ammonia level down below the 3ppm mark, which I *think* should allow your cycle to progress.

It's going to be a lot of work, and I'm honestly not sure what will happen next. If the ammonia created by the bioload fish is high enough to keep the levels of ammonia this high. . . ?! That is why I initially recommended splitting the inhabitants of this tank with one of your others, or a new one, and slowly adding them back once the cycle is established, and conditions safe. I have no way of knowing how much of this ammonia is the 'normal' amount for your animals, and I also am unsure of the *exact* level needed to stall the cycle. As your tank had previously been running okay, I suspect that once this cycle is established, you *should* be okay, though will always have to battle high nitrAtes. . . just my theory.

Again, I'm TERRIBLE with chemistry, my understanding is shaky, at best. . . So please do your own research into this, and feel free to correct and/or clarify if I'm wrong. . . I'm pretty sure I just confused myself with that explanation!

Best of luck getting out of this tricky situation!


*runs back to the beginner section where she belongs and hides*
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Last edited by Chesh; 11-01-2013 at 11:00 AM.. Reason: spelling fail!
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:48 AM   #40
 
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The importance of telling us the whole story

Candyman
I really tried to help you and gave fantastic advice and did my best to stay on track no matter how much blame you wanted to throw on your filter, old methods vs new and wherever else you were loosely flinging blame . However here is where nobody can really help you when you give us only half the story.
You have done MAJOR tinkering with this tank since September and also have been battling sick fish in there for a while you yourself realized and I quote you here about a barb in that tank "From what I gathered online it is most likely Hemorrhagic septicemia so I decided to get some API Tripple Sulfa and some aquarium salt and see if that works". Then after this you say this fish looked like it was having internal bleeding for a year. You dumped salt and meds in there killing you cycle instead of QTing the fish. I'll note you still had you're fabulous UGF at that time.
You medicated and salted your tank around~9/21/13
Removed your substrate and UGF around ~9/28/13
Then added a Your home made Co2 system ~10/1/13

All of this could have seriously shortened the process of helping you if we knew this. Our advice is only as good as the accuracy of the information we are given. You have created havoc on your tank and you can't go comparing UGFs to HOBs based on your experience since the Ammonia no doubt is from killing you're cycle with your rash whole tank treatment.. and really unadvisable to medicate your whole tank, salt your tank, Change your whole setup(new substrate and removing a filter) and add a Co2 reactor system(homemade or not) within 1 week.
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