The effect of Prime on Oxygen levels in an aquarium - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #1 of 19 Old 10-29-2013, 04:31 PM Thread Starter
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The effect of Prime on Oxygen levels in an aquarium

I may have missed it but is the ammoinia locked to total?

Prime will lock up the ammonia but that locked ammonia will still show up as ammonia in most test kits like the api test kit.

the seachem multitest ammonia kit measures free and total (the sum of free and locked) ammonia. I believe the seachem ammonia dot also measures just the free ammonia. You might want to check those values.

What can happen is you keep adding prime when it is not necessary. Prime also locks up oxygen so it is possible to suffocate the fish with overdosing.


my .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #2 of 19 Old 10-29-2013, 05:02 PM
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The effect of Prime on Oxygen levels in an aquarium

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
What can happen is you keep adding prime when it is not necessary. Prime also locks up oxygen so it is possible to suffocate the fish with overdosing.


my .02
Please, please, please show me where this has been the case. I am begging you! You've stated this several times on here so I'd really love to know!

You know what a quick Google search on the topic showed me? Prime Overdose -vs- Oxygen - Seachem Support Forums
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post #3 of 19 Old 10-29-2013, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWG View Post
Please, please, please show me where this has been the case. I am begging you! You've stated this several times on here so I'd really love to know!

You know what a quick Google search on the topic showed me? Prime Overdose -vs- Oxygen - Seachem Support Forums

Quote:
Originally Posted by that refrenced forum a post by seachem
Thank you very much for pointing this out to us; we hope to help clear up this issue and would truly appreciate you passing the information along once receiving it. All water conditioners are reducing agents; reducing agents will "reduce" whatever is available within the aquarium. For example, it reduces chlorine(Cl2) to two separate chloride molecules. Though the potential to reduce oxygen is there with any reducing agent, this is very, very rare. Prime can be safely overdosed up to five times the recommended amount in an emergency situation. Doing so is very safe, and it would take a massive overdose to have any effect on the oxygen levels in the tank. Because Prime only works for 24-48 hours, its effects do not build up over time. Hope this helps! Please let us know if you have further questions.
Although they poo-hoo the effect they do admit it in fact does reduce oxygen.

As I stated before the danger is you dose Prime (or any other dechlor or ammonia lock) and you still test ammonia. Even if that first dose completely locked up the ammonia.

So you dose again. test ammonia does again etc etc etc.

All the while locking oxygen. As Seachem admits above.

so you can suffocate the fish even if seachem doesn't want to admit it.

All the while only the first dose was required.

These type chemicals have side effects.

To me it is better to add fast growing plants to consume the ammonia while also sucking out carbon dioxide and returning oxygen. In that case the side effect is a healthier aquarium.

my .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #4 of 19 Old 10-29-2013, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
Although they poo-hoo the effect they do admit it in fact does reduce oxygen.

As I stated before the danger is you dose Prime (or any other dechlor or ammonia lock) and you still test ammonia. Even if that first dose completely locked up the ammonia.

So you dose again. test ammonia does again etc etc etc.

All the while locking oxygen. As Seachem admits above.

so you can suffocate the fish even if seachem doesn't want to admit it.

All the while only the first dose was required.

These type chemicals have side effects.

To me it is better to add fast growing plants to consume the ammonia while also sucking out carbon dioxide and returning oxygen. In that case the side effect is a healthier aquarium.

my .02
I quoted a very specific section of your post. So once again allow me to ask you to SHOW ME WHERE IT KILLS FISH. Please and thank you.

Since I understand how dechlorinators affect test I didn't require that part. Testing after 24 hours would show a decrease in even locked ammonia...if the cycle was working. Locked ammonia is still available for use by bacteria AND plants.

Last edited by BWG; 10-29-2013 at 05:22 PM.
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post #5 of 19 Old 10-29-2013, 05:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWG View Post
I quoted a very specific section of your post. So once again allow me to ask you to SHOW ME WHERE IT KILLS FISH. Please and thank you.

Since I understand how dechlorinators affect test I didn't require that part. Testing after 24 hours would show a decrease in even locked ammonia...if the cycle was working. Locked ammonia is still available for use by bacteria AND plants.

I'm sure seachem would not mention that.

To me it is kinda obvious that locking oxygen can kill fish.

I had also read the msds on another conditioner that specifically stated it was dangerous to aquatic live and should not be disposed of in lakes and streams.

Not to mention various city water authorities warning about overdosing dechlors and the like.


my .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #6 of 19 Old 10-29-2013, 05:40 PM
BWG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
I'm sure seachem would not mention that.

To me it is kinda obvious that locking oxygen can kill fish.

I had also read the msds on another conditioner that specifically stated it was dangerous to aquatic live and should not be disposed of in lakes and streams.

Not to mention various city water authorities warning about overdosing dechlors and the like.


my .02
Sources please. Show us all at what point Prime become lethal to aquarium life. If you're going to advise people against something like the use of dechlorinator then you need to back up your position.

*edit*Found a source from Seachem! http://www.seachem.com/support/forum...ead.php?t=2804 So just don't overdose by 20X the recommendation.

Last edited by BWG; 10-29-2013 at 05:57 PM.
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post #7 of 19 Old 10-30-2013, 12:34 AM
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I got the talk about Prime previously. My suggestion is do your research then ask questions. I don't use any of the dechlorinator with additives. Just let it do what it was designed to do and cycle the tank naturally as possible.
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post #8 of 19 Old 10-30-2013, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henningc View Post
I got the talk about Prime previously. My suggestion is do your research then ask questions. I don't use any of the dechlorinator with additives. Just let it do what it was designed to do and cycle the tank naturally as possible.
Who is this directed towards?
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post #9 of 19 Old 10-30-2013, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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FWIW and IMHO I think the thread title should be change from using "prime"

The locking up of oxygen is not limited to prime but is true of all ammonia locks and dechlorinators.

So instead of picking on prime you might want to change the title to dechlorinators/ammonia locks instead of Prime.

my .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #10 of 19 Old 10-30-2013, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
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consider this:

Found the msds for API ammo lock.

here:

http://www.apifishcare.com/pdf/Ammo-Lock.pdf

will email to if you want. email me at beaslbob@aol.com.

(or just look at above link. LOL)

Ammo lock contains:

alphatic amine salts, proprietary
sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate


Of particular interest is the sodium thiosulfate which is a very commonly used dechlor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mscs ammo lock
Marine Pollutant Yes


Very toxic to aquatic organisms.

Do NOT allow product to come in contact with surface waters or to intertidal areas below the mean high water

mark. Do not contaminate water when cleaning equipment or disposing of equipment wash-waters.
Wastes resulting from use of the product must be disposed of on site or at approved waste sites.
for thiosulfates:




So while seachem is probably absolutely correct there is little danger at recommended doses, there is a danger as they hinted to in general terms. These products are not without adverse side effects.

dechlor ammonium locks are in fact toxic to aquatic life.

Even if there were no pratical way of suffocating our fish I do not feel adding chemicals to our tanks that would kill fish in a stream near the factory producing those chemicals is an acceptable risk in my tank.

I also believe the side effects are much greater then what seachem and other producers talk about.

Especially when all one has to do is start an aquarium like live plants and wait a week.

Still that's just my .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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