the beaslbob build - Page 7 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #61 of 189 Old 12-31-2013, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
Thanks Steve.

Bout the only thing I would comment on is the lack of nitrates because the plants are consuming the ammonia. That IME is wrong. Bacteria still build up and consume ammonia then finally nitrates drop down because there is no more ammonia fo the plants. I have seen initial nitrate spikes for 3-4 weeks or so in new tanks. But with very small (1ppm or less) short (1 day or less) ammonia spikes. And similiar spikes when something goes bump in the night on established aquariums.

But still that's just my .02
Thanks for the reply. How about if I limit that scenario to when there is 0 Nitrate?

BTW, I liked your graph. Can you think of why the Nitrates drop precipitously? Thanks.

Steven


10g planted tank since 4/18/12; 2 10W CFLs; Fluval U2 filter; substrate: MGOCPM.
6 Pristella Tetras,
1 Betta splendens (f)
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post #62 of 189 Old 12-31-2013, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply. How about if I limit that scenario to when there is 0 Nitrate?

BTW, I liked your graph. Can you think of why the Nitrates drop precipitously? Thanks.

Steven
I speculate that was the point where the bacteria caught up with the ammonia.

not too much effect when one bacteria splits into 2. Which I think can happen farily rapidily like 45 minutes or so with ideal conditions.

But weeks later the bacteria may change for 20 billion to 40 billion in that 45 minutes.

So if it would require 30 billion to consume the ammonia the bacteria stop there and all the ammonia is converted to nitrites. and the plants have to start getting nitrates for nitrogen.

All that happened in 45 minutes or less.

But that's just my speculation

Worth at most .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #63 of 189 Old 02-05-2014, 09:51 AM Thread Starter
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FWIW I find it particularily bothersome when one has to pay for bacteria that will be in your tank and in sufficient quantity for no cost.

I would much rather pay for pretty plants which not only prevent the parameter spikes but have many many good "side" effects as well.

Or better yet get those plants for low or no costs from fellow hobbiests.

But even if the bottled bacteria and chemicals were at no cost, the fish and tank do much better just using live plants.

still that all just my .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #64 of 189 Old 02-05-2014, 12:21 PM
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That may well be true, Mr. Bob. But if the lives of my fish relied on my maintaining plants, they would all be as dead as the plants and I'd be keeping snakes.

I'm sure their are other black-thumbs who cherish the nitrogen cycle for similar reasons.

May I ask, respectfully, sir, why you interject off-topic comments about plants on a cycling-advice thread?
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post #65 of 189 Old 02-05-2014, 12:38 PM
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Cycling help!!

Yeah I am wondering the same thing. I think it's unrealistic to expect success with plants from people who are coming here looking for help cycling their tank. Too, just tossing plants in the tank like you say to do EVERY TIME doesn't actually teach them anything about how the cycle works. Plants or no plants, that's something that EVERYONE needs to learn. That is why people come to this thread, no?

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Last edited by jaysee; 02-05-2014 at 12:42 PM.
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post #66 of 189 Old 02-05-2014, 03:01 PM Thread Starter
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Hallx and Jaysee

I understand where you're coming from.

My experience is simply different.

I have never known any new aquarium setup even by those who have absolutely no experience or knowledge of aquariums which followed the methods in the link in my signature with say platies, that did not result in a clear, algae free aquarium full of plants and fish in six months.

Hopefully that is why people are coming to this thread.


But then that is just my .02
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maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #67 of 189 Old 02-06-2014, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post

I have never known any new aquarium setup even by those who have absolutely no experience or knowledge of aquariums which followed the methods in the link in my signature with say platies, that did not result in a clear, algae free aquarium full of plants and fish in six months.

So about that link.. yea...anyone looking at it really should read ALL of it. You do show how little you know about your own tanks and your own "method" that resulted in that gross tank.

I do love my plants unlike Jaysee..who is only pro at keeping a bit of algae
However the issue with pushing plants as the way to cycle your tank is that it's flawed. That's not really cycling your tank. Sure I agree the lend you a bit of a safety net which is nice.. and they can be pretty(when done right !!) but they aren't a substitute for cycling. As Tolak says.... there are many ways to the same result. I think Jaysee and myself are a perfect example of that. I do water changes every week or two on my larger tanks. I do keep plants. He does water changes every couple months or so. Keeps no plants. We both have many tanks and a large variety of fish yet our different approach to tank maintenance and keeping yields pretty tanks. One thing though..we do both cycle our tanks. I think it's in our best interest to explain that to everyone ... cycling IS important and not understanding that can lead to failure of your tank. I don't play chemist..I don't test my water hardly ever anymore. Once you've established your routine and understanding of your tank its all very simple..or hard if you like it to be.

Last edited by wake49; 02-07-2014 at 02:26 PM. Reason: cleaning up the thread
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post #68 of 189 Old 02-06-2014, 08:40 PM Thread Starter
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Well I appreciate everyone's input in this thread I didn't want this to become a discussion sorry

Back to the tank ph went down I'm raising it today sorry that I haven't post work is killing me I've been testing every day though and test still showing high ammonia ph went down since yesterday but I didn't have a chance to raise it I'm basically just getting home to sleep today I 'll try to raise as much as I can before choir practice

I have the ph at 6.0
Ammonia 2.0ppm ( I'm still adding prime)
Nitrite .0
Nitrate 5.0

Someone post a link about an aquarium club i guess I'll join once I have more time :)

Thank you guys for all your help and one last question do you think crushed coral would do better for the ph than the seashells if so I'll take another visit to aquarium world:)
before adding prime I would test free and total ammonia using the seachem ammonia multitest kit. And only dose prime the the free ammonia. If all the ammonia is total Prime will not only have no effect but will decrease the oxygen level of the tank.

I would also use baking soda to dose till kh (carbonate hardenss) is 4 degrees. And let the pH fall wherever it falls.

my .02

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #69 of 189 Old 02-06-2014, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
before adding prime I would test free and total ammonia using the seachem ammonia multitest kit. And only dose prime the the free ammonia. If all the ammonia is total Prime will not only have no effect but will decrease the oxygen level of the tank.

I would also use baking soda to dose till kh (carbonate hardenss) is 4 degrees. And let the pH fall wherever it falls.

my .02
Ugh!! Nooooo! Don't use baking soda. That will cause more problems then help.
You should add crushed coral to your filter and aragonite sand substrate will help too. This causes the raise of PH to be slow steady and consistent. No worrys of drastic PH swings that are easy to happen with baking soda.
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post #70 of 189 Old 02-06-2014, 10:13 PM
Regardless of how much you hate it, Bobs method is a viable method. May not be the best option but regardless it is viable. My methods are somewhat similar but that has nothing to do here nor there. Plants without compare are the easiest way to cycle or jump start a tank short of mature media. I really don't know the last time I started a tank any other way. I have mature media too... its just more effort to transfer it over. Tho mines quicker start up, higher input, higher output, lotta fish, lotta plants. I'd be stocked before you were anywhere near cycled. Cycling is one way to start a tank... its not at all required. For the same effect I can heavily stock a tank and not use a filter on it and have better water quality then if it was cycled with a filter. Plants are much more then a safety net.

Also nothing wrong with using baking soda either it specifically effects kH and not gH. Crushed coral and aragonite are going to effect both gH and kH. Gypsum.... if you care to know will effect only gH. I use baking soda and/or gypsum preferably. Buffers don't cause drastic pH swings since they are fairly neutral, really not sure why ppl think they do. I don't test my water much but I do play chemist way more then I care to......

.... I'm probably drunk.

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Last edited by wake49; 02-07-2014 at 02:28 PM. Reason: Still cleaning up the unfriendliness
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