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the beaslbob build

This is a discussion on the beaslbob build within the Advanced Freshwater Discussion forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Originally Posted by rickey Yes, internal to the plant, R Thanks...

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Old 11-14-2013, 09:33 AM   #51
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickey View Post
Yes, internal to the plant,
R

Thanks
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Old 11-15-2013, 09:42 AM   #52
 
dono about energy levels or such about what the plants get or how much they have to burn to consume nitrates vs ammonium, ...

it's easy at a ph under 6.5, it's almost all ammonium, almost zero ammonia
plants like ammonium.
after that plants like nitrates, which (as i have red anyway) will process nitrates into ammonium so they can once more use ammonium

ammonia on the other hand, ... well that's toxic
ammonium & ammonia are different although interchangeable based on PH.
one is safe for our tanks, one we hope we have an established tank to start the nitrogen cycle else our tanks are going to die.

i could be wrong, but plants don't like ammonia at all
our tanks are expected to have little to no ability to process ammonium, allowing it to build up, ... except for that slim margin of ammonia at those lower PH levels that can process the nitrogen cycle

PH below 6.5, great, doesn't take much to maintain a non-toxic environment with fish swimming in heavy ammonium concentrations
a PH shift can be all that's needed to suddenly kill all our fish before we know what happened.

sure, i'm way off topic on ammonia vs ammonium vs nitrates on, ... but ammonia doesn't factor in.
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:10 PM   #53
 
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I'm not a plant person, but I have heard them say that plants do like ammonia.
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:40 AM   #54
 
the little bits i've come across (it's a really hard search)

i couldn't find clear answers on plants directly using ammonia
i did find answers that suggest regardless what the plant absorbs the plants internal PH will convert it to ammonium and it gets what it's after for it's nitrogen nutrient

i did come across stuff that mentioned as far as ammonia is concerned plants can tolerate ammonia levels high enough to kill our fish long before the plant suffers
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:46 PM   #55
 
I have heard that John Deere landscaping's turface can be used also and is almost the same as the pro choice select.

link:

Pro LeagueŽ Calcined Clay | Turface Athletics
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:26 PM   #56
 
Turface is a marketed name for arcillite
arcillite is baked Montmorillonite
Montmorillonite is a clay with a very high CEC and 1001 uses, the most accessible one being cheap clay clumping cat litter as it swells when wet
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Old 12-09-2013, 05:02 PM   #57
 
so that's where the kittly liter stuff comes from.

Thanks
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Old 12-09-2013, 05:23 PM   #58
 
never know where research will take you when looking up what is needed to build a self-sustaining aquarium.

much of what i have seen of other peoples attempts involved tanks that, ... well, ... if you couldn't see it easily with your eye, if you couldn't readily obtain it from the LFS it wasn't worth considering.

but things i have found, ... substrates, various algaes, fish with a rather exacting diet, stuff in the tank to match that diet, ... things/critters to increase the health of the substrate, more research on what to do about nutrients in the water column, lighting, tempuratures, ... well now i'm bragging

but down to the basics, ... what i think is needed for a self-sustaining aquarium is a giant over what i have heard of people attempting.

i run into some major serious concerns with various cycles in the tank, ... nitrogen cycle, ... where there's stages that involve gasses to be gassed off, that's nothing other than nutrients lost that the tank will not regain, ... that's scary and nothing can be done about it

things to help retain nutrients in the tank, preferably in the substrate, ... no stone unturned, ... and high CEC additives are something i am really interested in to solve one of the problems.

high AEC minerals ... well that's proving to be trickier.

some time i have to head over to another forum where i found information on issues with DSBs, (real issues are talked about, not the ones people keep imagining) that i think interferes with, but relates to the possitive & negative charge in the substrate affecting nutrient retention there.

and how to solve the nitrogen/ammonia issue, i don't even know what other nutrients have a form in the aquarium that can be gassed off.

in addition is chelating chemicals, which brought up concerns about farming fertilizers, organic fertilizers vs the chemical ones, ... those chemical ones are toxic, worse for an aquarium man-made chelating chemicals are no better, ... try to find what to add to chelate chemicals that would otherwise eventually remove themself from the usable aquarium life-cycle, ... :/

but yup, this is the stuff that kitty litter is made from
also used in the oil industry to remove water from the oil, ... and other things i haven't heard about.
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:22 AM   #59
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
I am totally unaware of that process and in years of posting I have never heard that before. Can you provide me a reference where plants tank nitrate and reduce it to ammonia?

I am very aware that plants consume nitrates (when no ammonia is available) plus phosphate plus some other nutrients, plus co2, and return oxygen. In that process plant tissue/food is produced along with the returned oxygen. So it seems to me that anaerobic denitrification would be unnecessary. Especially when the plants have made the tank a net consumer of co2 and producer of oxygen each 24 hour period.

I have heard of anaerobic processes as in deap sea beds in marine tank (with limited algaes present). In that process the nitrates are reduced to nitrItes and then to nitrogen gas. A when not working in that manner can in fact further reduce the nitrItes to ammonia instead of the nitrogen gas. Which obviously is not a healthy environment as the ammonia then would then add to the "bio load" for the aerobic bacteria. Not to mention the sulfer compunds produces also.

I am also aware that reducing co2 rasies pH with KH remaining constant. Hence my high PH values (8.4-8.8 purple on the api high range test kit) indicating low co2 in the system.

But then I am still learning. Meanwhile my old tanks did just fine for years and years.

Still just my .02
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I don't know that much about plants' uptake of Nitrogen, but I found the chemical reactions to the Nitrogen Cycle and I thought they might help. All you have to do is run them backwards in reverse order:

NitrificationNitrification occurs by the following reactions:
2 NH3 + 3 O2 → 2 NO2 + 2 H+ + 2 H2O
2 NO2- + O2 → 2 NO3-
Aerobic bacteria use oxygen to convert ammonia and ammonium. Nitrosomonas bacteria convert nitrogen into nitrite (NO2-) and then nitrobacter convert nitrite to nitrate (NO3-). Some bacteria exist in a symbiotic relationship with plants (legumes and some root-nodule species). Plants utilize the nitrate as a nutrient. Animals obtain nitrogen by eating plants or plant-eating animals. Nitrogen Cycle


Like I said, I don't know much about this, but at least functionally, plants take up Nitrogen as follows:


NH3 (also from NH4) is taken up by plants directly, as is, and does not require conversion. Nitrite, the next step up in nitrification, is first converted to NH3, using 3 oxygen ions (energy), then used for energy.


So, NH3 can be directly used by the plant without the expense of energy to convert it and is preferred over Nitrite and Nitrate. Nitrite takes Oxygen (energy) to convert to NH3 internally to the plant and is where the plant goes next. Nitrate must be converted twice to be used by the plant as NH3 using Oxygen at each conversion. Ammonium (NH3) and Nitrite are preferred over Nitrate, so the only time Nitrate willl be used is if there is no Ammonium or Nitrite present and if there is Nitrate present.


When my plants are growing well, I see 0 Nitrate, otherwise 20 or less. This makes me think that since the plants are taking up all of the ammonia and bypassing the bacterial Nitrogen Cycle, Nitrate doesn't get a chance to exist, if all the conditions like adequate light, nutrients exist.


Steven
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:05 AM   #60
 
Thanks Steve.

Bout the only thing I would comment on is the lack of nitrates because the plants are consuming the ammonia. That IME is wrong. Bacteria still build up and consume ammonia then finally nitrates drop down because there is no more ammonia fo the plants. I have seen initial nitrate spikes for 3-4 weeks or so in new tanks. But with very small (1ppm or less) short (1 day or less) ammonia spikes. And similiar spikes when something goes bump in the night on established aquariums.

But still that's just my .02
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