the beaslbob build - Page 17 - Tropical Fish Keeping - Aquarium fish care and resources
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post #161 of 189 Old 02-13-2014, 09:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikaila31 View Post
That equation isn't an accurate calc of the effects of a water change on parameters. It may seem straightforward but its not. Also it is a recursive calculation meaning the answer feeds back into it repetitively, which is they key to the leveling off.
a(n) = [a(n-1) + w][1-x] + xz, n>=1, a(0)=y
y=starting nitrate in tank b4 1st wc, z=tap parameters, w=buildup of nitrate b4 each wc, x= % wc in decimal, n= # of wc's


...

.
You equation is after the water change.

My equation:

parameters before water change=amount in replacement water+(increase)/(fraction of water change)

Is before the water change and after sufficient water changes have been performed so the amount before water change is the same water change to water change. In other words where the tank winds up.

I have found out that by looking at the amount before the water change simplifies the equation considerably and allows a better analysis. for instance if you "tie" the amount of water change to the frequencey (1/10 every 10 days, 1/20 every 20 days, etc), the amount before the water change winds being the same. The amount after the water change varies with the amount/frequency.

The reason this works is that in order for the final conditions to be met, the amount removed by the water change must be removed by the water change. So if you're doing a 1/10 water change, the parameters must be 10 times the build up, 1/5 5 times, 1/100 100 times and so on.

I have already plotted the equation and found that the values reach that limit in a very short while. Like say 5% within a few months or so.

Check your charts and you will find that to be true.

Again in case anyone missed it. Fw and marine systems unmeasureable ammonia,nitrItes, nitrate, and phospahtes. PH 8.4-8.8. Calcium/alk/mag have to be maintained with dosing in reef tanks. FW tanks with peat moss in the substrate kh 4 degrees, gh 9 degrees for over two years. kh and gh do rise over years in FW tank with a plain sand substrate and neon tetras do not do well.
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maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #162 of 189 Old 02-14-2014, 12:21 AM
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Fish don't do math. They all reproduce in nature. If you can come closer to breeding species in your tank that are rarely reported you're moving forward. If not your neck & neck, or moving backwards.

We all experiment with maintenance to some extent, hopefully for the better of the fish, or at least maintaining the quality of care while making our lives a bit easier. If you're maintaining the quality of care while making your life easier great, I'm all for easier. If you're more easily breeding more difficult species plenty of folks would like to hear about it, this would be the benchmark of improvement. If neither of these is happening something needs adjusting.
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post #163 of 189 Old 02-14-2014, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Austin View Post
Just thought I'd point out that tap water is nothing like rain water... At least in most places. And a fish tank is nothing like nature, even with plants.
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True but a standing pond can support hardy fish.. why is this any diffirent? As long as the waste is being converted and the water has sufficent oxygen, that's all that matters. This setup can't provide a suitable home to any fish but it should work well for hardy ones. I just don't like standing water.
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post #164 of 189 Old 02-14-2014, 09:13 AM Thread Starter
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cleaned this up a bit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
You equation is after the water change.

My equation:

parameters before water change=amount in replacement water+(increase)/(fraction of water change)

Is before the water change and after sufficient water changes have been performed so the amount before water change is the same water change to water change. In other words where the tank winds up.

I have found out that by looking at the amount before the water change simplifies the equation considerably and allows a better analysis. for instance if you "tie" the amount of water change to the frequency (1/10 every 10 days, 1/20 every 20 days, etc), the amount before the water change winds being the same. The amount after the water change varies with the amount/frequency.

The reason this works is that in order for the final conditions to be met, the build up between water changes must be removed by the water change. So if you're doing a 1/10 water change, the parameters must be 10 times the build up, 1/5 5 times, 1/100 100 times and so on.

I have already plotted the equation and found that the values reach that limit in a very short while. Like say 5% within a few months or so.

Check your charts and you will find that to be true.

Again in case anyone missed it. Fw and marine systems unmeasureable ammonia,nitrItes, nitrate, and phospahtes. PH 8.4-8.8. Calcium/alk/mag have to be maintained with dosing in reef tanks. FW tanks with peat moss in the substrate kh 4 degrees, gh 9 degrees for over two years. kh and gh do rise over years in FW tank with a plain sand substrate and neon tetras do not do well.

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #165 of 189 Old 02-14-2014, 09:17 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolak View Post
Fish don't do math. They all reproduce in nature. If you can come closer to breeding species in your tank that are rarely reported you're moving forward. If not your neck & neck, or moving backwards.

...
.
Let me see if I understand this.

Unless I breed fish noone else does or at least is considered very hard to breed, then "my" system is totally useless?

Even if fish live for years and years and I never see a first fish (cycle) type death.


Even if raw inexpereienced newbies are amased with the results and will always do planted tanks in the future?

I simply reject that.

Besides my saltwater fish did spawn.

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #166 of 189 Old 02-14-2014, 09:27 AM
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the beaslbob build

I believe what tolak was getting at was whether your method is a superior or inferior method compared to the hobby standard. So.... Do you feel your method is superior to the standard method, and if so on what basis? Guppies and platies breeding?


Amazed newbies? Where?

125 - BGK, chanchito cichlid, pictus cats, silver dollars, palmas bichir
125 - cichlids (severums, bolivian rams, chocolate), rainbows ( turquoise, red), loaches (angelicus, zebra, kuhli and horseface), plecos (BN, RL and clown), denison barbs, tiretrack eel, pearl gouramis, betta
90 - Congo tetras, african knife, upside down cats, spotted ctenopoma, kribensis, delhezzi bichir
2.5 - betta
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post #167 of 189 Old 02-14-2014, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysee View Post
I believe what tolak was getting at was whether your method is a superior or inferior method compared to the hobby standard. So.... Do you feel your method is superior to the standard method, and if so on what basis? Guppies and platies breeding?


Amazed newbies? Where?

Based upon years of successful long term high bioload tanks.

in may different cities.

Care to discuss the parameters I posted here and how they compare to "standard" methods.

How does a max of .25 ammonia for 1 day compare to newbie experiences here.

how about nitrates at unmeasureable levels after 21 days?

How about kH and gh at 4 and 9 degrees for over two years?

All with no water changes, and untreated tap water.

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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post #168 of 189 Old 02-14-2014, 09:46 AM
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the beaslbob build

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
Based upon years of successful long term high bioload tanks.

in may different cities.

Care to discuss the parameters I posted here and how they compare to "standard" methods.

How does a max of .25 ammonia for 1 day compare to newbie experiences here.

how about nitrates at unmeasureable levels after 21 days?

How about kH and gh at 4 and 9 degrees for over two years?

All with no water changes, and untreated tap water.


How about we not deflect with more rhetoric. You would make a fantastic politician, by the way.

I don't know....I just think that if you wanted your method to be taken seriously that you would be more forthcoming with requested information and more eager to address people's concerns. By talking in circles and answering questions with questions, it's hard to believe that it is your goal to be taken seriously, and if that's not your goal then I have to ask what is. Not gonna hold my breath for an answer.

125 - BGK, chanchito cichlid, pictus cats, silver dollars, palmas bichir
125 - cichlids (severums, bolivian rams, chocolate), rainbows ( turquoise, red), loaches (angelicus, zebra, kuhli and horseface), plecos (BN, RL and clown), denison barbs, tiretrack eel, pearl gouramis, betta
90 - Congo tetras, african knife, upside down cats, spotted ctenopoma, kribensis, delhezzi bichir
2.5 - betta

Last edited by jaysee; 02-14-2014 at 10:00 AM.
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post #169 of 189 Old 02-14-2014, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazyfish View Post
True but a standing pond can support hardy fish.. why is this any diffirent? As long as the waste is being converted and the water has sufficent oxygen, that's all that matters. This setup can't provide a suitable home to any fish but it should work well for hardy ones. I just don't like standing water.
To me it's sad to subject "hardy" fish to poor conditions just because they can tolerate it. If this technique doesn't work for more sensitive fish, what value does it have if you can just keep some hardy fish alive?
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post #170 of 189 Old 02-14-2014, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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Jaysee, Austin, et all.

Ok I get it.

I post procedures.

I post parameters.

I post pictures.

I post newbie reports.

I post mathmatical models of how and why it works.

All of which you ignore because you don't believe the results.

Not much more can be done.

I just hope newbies can get over all that, look at the parameters and results and give it a try.

maintain Fw and marine system with a strong emphasis on balanced, stabilized system that as much as possible are self substaning.

have maintained FW systems for up to 9 years with descendants from original fish and marine aquariums for up to 8 years.

With no water changes, untreated tap water, inexpensive lighting by first starting the tank with live plants (FW) or macro algae( marine)

see: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/a...-build-295530/
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