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the beaslbob build

This is a discussion on the beaslbob build within the Advanced Freshwater Discussion forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> I've only ever heard bob mention guppies and platies....

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Old 02-13-2014, 05:01 PM   #151
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I've only ever heard bob mention guppies and platies.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:06 PM   #152
Originally Posted by jaysee View Post
I've only ever heard bob mention guppies and platies.
neon tetras
zebra danios
angel fish
silver hachetfish

Plus more

on the marine side

yellow and regal tangs
coral catfish
neon gobies
yellow gobies
plus more

So now you have heard of more fish.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:07 PM   #153
Originally Posted by Flear View Post
newbies require more than easy to follow methods
once they are convinced all you need is easy to follow methods.

beaslbob, you talk about the math of the effectiveness (or as you put it "ineffectiveness") of water changes.

putting aside your pride for a bit, there is an effectiveness that supports water changes, ...

going from "water changes" to "water changes are not needed because, well, because i've got proof.

yes, you have proof, i have proof, hundreds of other people have proof as well, ... what we don't have is anything to back up our proof, we have word-of-mouth, we have "well i did it, and things are stable"

we don't have proof

sitting back and saying "well i have done it, so you can do it too" that doesn't convince anyone of anything, ... your going about trying to convince people of your method and your method doesn't give any proof, it asks faith, ... we're not brought up in a world that encourages faith
So where is your analysis of the equation I submitted.

Seems like you are asking for people to accept you view on faith instead of discussing that equation.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:37 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
So now you have heard of more fish.

Yes that's amusing. I've only SEEN platies.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:56 PM   #155
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Just thought I'd point out that tap water is nothing like rain water... At least in most places. And a fish tank is nothing like nature, even with plants.
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:50 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Austin View Post
Just thought I'd point out that tap water is nothing like rain water... At least in most places. And a fish tank is nothing like nature, even with plants.
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Very good point. My tapwater is very different than rain. Tap is high ph and hard, rain is acid and soft.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:34 PM   #157
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Nice starting list of species for someone newer to the BAP program of any reasonably decent club. Just guessing the TDS would tend to rise, along with the pH mentioned, African cichlids should be big on that list. I can see where plants might take a beating with some of those species, along with any NW cichlids causing some mayhem.

If this were a better system of tank maintenance I’d expect to see species less commonly bred due to the difficulty involved. There are several mentions of a closed self-sustaining system, similar to nature. All species breed in nature, if this were a more natural system breeding of those more difficult species would be more easily attainable. To me as well as many advanced breeders this would show a superior system to what is commonly found. Breeders change a lot of water; I have yet to meet one who bases their breeding techniques on not changing any water long term. It’s one thing to replicate seasonal changes with lack of water changes & so on, this is a short-term situation.

Inland Aquatics was mentioned, without knowing how involved their system is with water reclamation, something that should be part of a setup that size, they may well bring in only 10% new water yearly. This is part of public aquarium management, reuse & recycle, go green as much as possible. I’d bet they took the tech the big guys use, and downsized it for their facility, good on them.

Unfortunately this sort of system is beyond the budget of nearly all hobbyists, at least for now. That being the case it’s back to the low-tech water changes for all breeders I’ve met. I’m very lucky that I live in an area where I run into some of the bigger name breeders a few times yearly, the type that get into published breeder’s challenges & such. While changing water is not the only trick in their huge bag of tricks, it is a big, varied, and important one. Plants play into this as well, but again, they are not the only trick. Given the choice any breeder I know will forgo plants before water changes.

The only real way to sort this out would be to source some various species, something easy to breed such as guppys, something a bit more difficult but not impossible, perhaps discus, or one of the more tricky L number plecs. Set up a tank as Bob does, set one up as a serious breeder would, random pick fish to stock and maintain accordingly. If you want to document it join a club, tell them of your intentions. They will love you, and probably want you to make a meeting presentation out of it.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:42 PM   #158
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I don't believe I've seen it mentioned that he thinks it's a better way to keep fish. I do believe it's been asked of him and not answered though.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:51 PM   #159
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
Then discuss this equation:

parameters before water change=value of replacement water+(change between water changes0/(fraction of water change)

And why it is possible to have 0 ammonia,nitrite,nitrates,phosphates and high pH for years with no water changes and a very heavy bioload.

Why inland aquatics in their maintenance systems do a 5% annual water change.

And why people doing water changes still report 1ppm ammonia after weeks of "cyclin g".
That equation isn't an accurate calc of the effects of a water change on parameters. It may seem straightforward but its not. Also it is a recursive calculation meaning the answer feeds back into it repetitively, which is they key to the leveling off.
a(n) = [a(n-1) + w][1-x] + xz, n>=1, a(0)=y
y=starting nitrate in tank b4 1st wc, z=tap parameters, w=buildup of nitrate b4 each wc, x= % wc in decimal, n= # of wc's

If you graph this you will note the tank levels out or I can PM you a file for it. An parameters go much further then just ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and phosphates.

You have not given us anything that shows your parameters for over 2 years.

Fish produce ammonia, a tank 'cycles' when there are no plants or bacteria to remove this ammonia. They can change all the water they want that doesn't stop the fish from producing ammonia. What it does is keep ammonia levels down so your not killing your fish off constantly while your cycling. Its easy enough to silent cycle a tank without your methods.

Originally Posted by Flear View Post
Mikaila31, ... i'm always going to be chasing that pot at the end of the rainbow.

i call it 'not giving up'

in my frustration with beaslbob about not having any numbers for his aged tanks,
i'm getting an opposite consideration for you, still no numbers though. ... not on your maintained tanks, which considering the topic/thread, is far more important to get a baseline with than considering tanks we are all considering 'unmaintained'

unmaintained is just that, ... useless to compare stats against, ... unmaintained vs. unmaintained, what one has numbers closer to a maintained tank ?, ... first question, "what are some sample numbers for a maintained tank ?

... i'm going to have to look elsewhere.
Some call it delusional...

You want numbers on maintained tanks all you have to do is ask. All tanks are different which is what you are going to see here. These tanks are maintained with regular water changes that doesn't necessarily make them comparable to my neglected 15g with almost no bioload. You want something directly comparable run an experiment yourself with two identical setups. All these tanks are due for a water change in 1-2 days.

10g - bare bottom, 15-18 H. belheri, snails and hornwort, 50% every 1-2 weeks
gH = 7degrees, kH = 0-1 degrees, NO3 = 30-40ppm, TDS = 200, pH = 7.1
40g Breeder - soil, fertilized, 45-50 fish, snails, shrimp, 50% weekly
gH = 10-11, NO3 = 15ppm, kH = 6, TDS = 250, pH = 7.9
20g - gravel, fertilized, 16-18 fish, 50% weekly
gH = 7, NO3 = 0, kH = 5, TDS = 296, pH = 7.7
Again tap water is
gH = 6, NO3= 0-5, kH=4, TDS = 130, pH = 7.8-8.0

The amusing thing here flear is I haven't seen or heard anything of your tanks. Majority of mine are setup low end or 'on a budget' and pay me back considerably... so I keep getting more -_-

My neglected 15g is hopefully getting redone this weekend and will be a mess. My laziness means it needs a good long CLR acid bath to clean that glass.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:55 PM   #160
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That equasion is much like the dialog by Plato in which a man must choose to bet on one of two runners. Runner#1 starts at the beginning and moves one step at a time. Runner#2 starts halfway to the finnish line and with each step of the first runner he moves another halfway. The man bets on runner#2 because its obvious that the runner who starts halfway to the finishline will win, but because of his trick with language and mathmatics, Socrates win the man's money.

Water changes move one step at a time. If my bioload produces 20 per week, and I remove/ dilute 20 per week, I'm stable.
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