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the beaslbob build

This is a discussion on the beaslbob build within the Advanced Freshwater Discussion forums, part of the Freshwater Fish and Aquariums category; --> Originally Posted by beaslbob Hence I have kept FW and marine tanks for up to 9 years with no water changes. And you've got ...

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Old 02-11-2014, 07:07 PM   #121
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
Hence I have kept FW and marine tanks for up to 9 years with no water changes.
And you've got a one graph (that could be made in 5 minutes), two pictures of the same tank and a 5 second video of someone elses tank (supposedly your build) to show for it? All the same stuff you've always posted.

Last edited by jaysee; 02-11-2014 at 07:11 PM..
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:52 PM   #122
 
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I'd also like to see some current photos/videos. . . curious to see what this type of setup looks like after several years running.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:23 PM   #123
 
any comments on the parameter graph?

I guess the pictues must be at least acceptable. After all no negative comments on those. Just what to tanks look like fter a few years.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

1) with those paramenters does any new tank even need to measure those things.

2) How much better and safer are those paramenters to say the fishless mode? Let alone the prime/dechlor/waterchange/filtered methods.

3) how about the tank that added 11 fish in a 10g immediately (with dechlor) and still had 10 fish alive a year later.

All that means to me is the methods in my link are extremely safe even for the new hobbist with absolutely no experience.

I have had raw newbies 3 days into a tank with the first fish lying listlss on the bottom add anacharis and in a few hours the fish was completely recovered, zipping around the tank, and lived at least a year or more. Not to mention they were so pleased with having a brand new tank with pretty plants as well.

so still waiting on comments on the prameters submitted.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:31 PM   #124
 
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Originally Posted by jaysee View Post
And you've got a one graph (that could be made in 5 minutes), two pictures of the same tank and a 5 second video of someone elses tank (supposedly your build) to show for it? All the same stuff you've always posted.

And 35 years of successful tanks.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:32 PM   #125
 
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the beaslbob build

That's what you keep saying.....
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:52 PM   #126
 
beaslbob, what are your water parameters for your older running tanks ?
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:58 PM   #127
 
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Just letting everyone subscribed know that I combined Beaslbob's new thread into this one, where the discussion on this subject is already ongoing. You will find those posts on page 12 of this thread.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:39 AM   #128
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
any comments on the parameter graph?

I guess the pictues must be at least acceptable. After all no negative comments on those. Just what to tanks look like fter a few years.
Well as I've said before I'm not a fan of how the water looks ... but the reason for no comments is mainly it's not current.. this is the same picture you've been posting for almost a decade..along the the other pic. Do you have a tank right now that's been running for years on this method?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

1) with those paramenters does any new tank even need to measure those things.

2) How much better and safer are those paramenters to say the fishless mode? Let alone the prime/dechlor/waterchange/filtered methods.

3) how about the tank that added 11 fish in a 10g immediately (with dechlor) and still had 10 fish alive a year later.
I just want to point out the advice we give here is not just to have these newbies ..or anyone strive for your fish simply to *survive* your tanks condition..and for only 1 yr... People can *survive* 20yrs of hardcore alcoholism but I don't think health forums will recommend that either..
All that means to me is the methods in my link are extremely safe even for the new hobbist with absolutely no experience.
I want to set up our members for success.. your claims have yet to be proven.. no on going data..no science to back it up.. and ..umm.. no ongoing data or even pics.
I have had raw newbies 3 days into a tank with the first fish lying listlss on the bottom add anacharis and in a few hours the fish was completely recovered, zipping around the tank, and lived at least a year or more. Not to mention they were so pleased with having a brand new tank with pretty plants as well.
Many new fish take time to adjust. Plus I've had new fish inactive till I added décor that apparently made them more adjusted and active..I don't even understand what this claim was supposed to prove.. and it's the same one I've seen you use over and over for many years in many places
so still waiting on comments on the prameters submitted.
You gave us a graph of 2 weeks of the beginning of a tank you kept a decade ago.. that a method does not make. Just 2 weeks. Also may I respectfully point out that you call it a leiden tank yet you say you don't use filtration or circulation? You do know that also the leiden tanks are recommended to use a canister filter? Why do you use legit methods ..still use their name then butcher them? It's either a leiden tank or its not..and it is not.. its a bealsbob tank. I mean no disrespect .. I'm just genuinely concerned about how you're aggressively pushing this in the beginner section.. Why not discuss it right here ..or offer your advice in the planted tank section?
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:19 AM   #129
 
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I really love the chemistry behind keeping freshwater fishtanks. Thanks guys for such an in-depth treatment of the subject. My interest is mainly academic, and i might just be missing the point but... why get into all this masters level chemistry when stable, healthy conditons can be maintained by regular water changes. I mean, what's so bad about water changes?

I love the idea of an all natural tank with no chemicals or filtration, but in a closed, unnatural system such as an aquarium, it seems pretty obvious that you'll have to remove and replace water regularly to avoid unnatural and unhealthy conditions.

I dont ask this to insult or contradict anyone. I really appreciate the thought and caring that goes into a discussion like this.

Best wishes to all.
Water changes are good. Period. There is absolutely no such thing in this hobby as changing too much water. The chemistry, biology, and ecology behind freshwater systems is absolutely fascinating. Knowing the science behind it is great and does help you predict your tanks surprisingly well. But a lot of it isn't necessary. Chemistry is my career which helps(or cry), biology is my major, I love my many tanks, I also love my kayak and spending time on natural water ways. Needless to say I hardly every test my water beyond pH and TDS. The only reason I bother with those tests is because both are digital pens and really no effort to check once a month. I love that you said closed system, since tanks certainly are. Lakes, rivers, oceans on the other hand are not. Water changes replicate what naturally happens in these systems. The degree is greater due to the incredibly higher bioload aquariums have in comparison.

Flear.... Your still chasing the pot at the end of the rainbow. Plants alone are not going to control TDS. I don't know what natural TDS values are I would assume the range is pretty vast. I've not bother to test for that in my local state. What I can tell you is nitrates usually are not zero(but close), its easy to get and maintain zero in an aquarium due to high favoring of plant growth. Specifically the reason a lot of planted keepers add nitrates is to stop it from hitting zero. Plants do a role in cycling nutrients but they certainly don't do it alone in a natural system. I keep some crazy densely planted tank... I knock the glass on some of them prior to feeding to let the fish know since the plants are seriously that thick. Part of the reason IDK how many fish I have.

Plants will take up some TDS out of the water but its not going to be close to equal the build up. Likewise fish produce hormones the same is true for plants. They also produce a wide range of hormones, all plants do. TDS = total dissolved solids. This includes everything inorganic and organic that is dissolved. You cannot test individually for everything a TDS meter will pick up without spending a small fortune. EVERYTHING contributes to TDS. Your fish food, dechlorinator, that useless pH buffer, that driftwood you added, evaporation, fertilizers, most substrates, ect, ect, and ect. All are going to push TDS upwards.

TDS can fluctuate, everything does, the importance is it doesn't constantly build up. When I dosed all my fertilizer to that tank awhile back with the gypsum, baking soda, mag. sulfate the total sum was 2.5 tsp of powdered solids. In comparison to my neglected tank the TDS in that tank is currently 270ppm. The difference here is I know what is contributing to it. And the tank has large water changes to remove excess which drops the TDS before redosing. This is the same tank I use to breed GBR on an almost weekly basis for many months.

This is a simplified carbon cycle in a natural lake. First thing to note there is surface water input and groundwater input. There is also surface water output! Its still not a closed cycle! As Austin mentioned organics are certainly soluble. Alcohol mixes with water and it would be a tragedy if it didn't, since I don't sober post here anymore. DOC= dissolved organic compounds and is an important factor in aquatic systems. POC= partial organic compounds which are suspended but not dissolved, usually because they are not fully broken down by bacteria and fungi. Simple example of this is wood secretes tannic acids(along with much more) this is an organic compound and it will hang around for a long time before it eventually gets broken down (also will factor into the 'unaccounted' on a TDS meter). Trees fall into lakes introduce a easy ton or more of wood which will eventually get broken down by the lake. There are whole trophic levels missing in an aquarium that play a role here. Fish are one of the highest trophic levels in an aquatic system and thus have the smallest bioload and are of the least importance. Lakes and rivers all over the world play a huge role for insect larva. You really don't wanna know how many insects a square mile of lake can produce. Many of which leave the lake as winged adults, fly off, a huge amount of them get eaten by birds, bats, and other organisms. Again this is an output of nutrients leaving the lake. Its not closed, it never has been, and your gonna need to learn magic to make it so.

Soft and hard is determined by gH and kH and IDK the ranges off the top of my head. TDS varies since again its a sum of everything which at the same time tells you nothing of whats what. The 'typical' dose of salt for FW will shoot your TDS up 300-400ppm in my experience. I would say for FW system TDS is typically below 500ppm unless you are counting the rift lakes. But say adding salt to my tap water and expecting it to be anything like the rift lakes based on TDS is gonna get you nowhere fast.

Flear you could spend years on trying to make a self sufficient tank and still its not gonna happen. Designing a low maintenance tank with a high output isn't that hard. And it will pay you back before you figure out how to make a self sustaining one. Just my advice. Physics dictate chemistry, which dictates biology, which dictates ecology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
that does not seem to be obvious at all to me. Unless you do massive water changes frequently, waer changes will never maintain healthy conditions by themselves. What will happens is conditions build up to where the conditions just before a water change equals the change between water changes divided by the fraction of water change. so if you change 1/5 of the water the tank conditions will be 5 times the change between water changes. Plus whatever is in the replacement water. So unless you are doing 100% daiily water changes with perfect water, the tank conditions override the water change effect.


So what is important is to limit the amount the tank changes. then the water changes are irrelevant and in fact can only deteriorate conditions.

Hence I have kept FW and marine tanks for up to 9 years with no water changes.

my .02
A tank will actually maintain levels with regular water changes, and always the more the better. The fact is things do level off like you mentioned. As levels increase while a tank establishes you eventually hit a point where levels in the tank become concentrated enough that the water changes remove an amount equal to the build up and thing stay basically stable. The math isn't as straight forward as that. The catch to this is the less water you change the higher the levels become before they stabilize and hold there. Which again comes down to more water changed is better. So you are correct the less and longer between changes the more conditions change. If you want a tank to stay similar to your tap water try 50% or more change a week. The reason keeping a high tech planted tank(or simply high demand) and dosing heavy fertilizers requires 50% weekly changes is again to ensure nothing builds up excessively.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:25 AM   #130
 
angent13, yes that also has me concerned about the validity of his tank(s)

for 9 year old tanks there's not much for plant growth
for 9 year old tanks, when it comes number crunching time he's got numbers to estimate the initial days, ...

but where are his numbers for a tank he's running now, a tank that has run for years (several) ... what are those numbers ?

sure i expect ammonia & nitrite to be negligible, nitrates to be decent enough for the plants
he has offered a pH value for his tanks, ...

beaslbob, ... do you have the test kits to test your water parameters ?
is this why you are not providing numbers because you are missing test kits to bring those numbers into play for everyone ?
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