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the beaslbob build

39K views 188 replies 16 participants last post by  beaslbob 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
reference:

Curious then, do you get algae/cyano problems then?

Also more idle curiosity here. If you were to set up a 10 gallon tank using your ideally preferred method could you walk me through it exactly.. substrate, stock, plants how you'd do the cycle(if you do cycle ..you do right?) . Maintenance, decor, equipment etc.
or if you have a 10g setup could you just explain that one ? and maybe a picture?

Pwetty pwetty pwease??
from thread:


http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...n/effect-prime-oxygen-levels-aquarium-294058/

I posted this on another forum site and one poster titled their build thread as the beaslbob build just because it 'had a ring to it' :lol: You can now google beaslbob build or beaslbob method and get many hits.

So here is what I do:

equipment required

tank (10g used here) $15 or so.

old timie 2 tube incandescent hood. ($20 bought seperate and new but sometimes included in 10g starter kits or available at thrift centers and the like).

2 11-14 watt skinny spiral pig tail 6500k floursent bulbs. Designed to replace incandescent bulbs. Wall mart had GE packages clolored blue with "6500k" vertical down the sides. 2 tubes ~$5 or so. Note: the wattage it not the much higher equilivant incandescent wattage which is the wattage of an equilivant incandescent bulb).

1 1'x1'x3' plastic bag if canadain sphagum peat moss. $11 building supply stores. (note no ferts added)

1 50 pound premium play sand. building supply stores $3.

1 50 pound bag pro choise select. from: Pro's Choice Products. $6. (Had to contact that manufacturer to get a local source.)

plants: 4 bunches of anacharis, 4 Vallisneria, 4 small potted types (swords, crypts etc), 1 amazon sword.. (for reference check out: Vals, Corkscrew (Vallisneria americana) (10 plants per order) ) ~$30-50 or so.

some kind of stand to put aquarium on.

setup:

1) place 1" of peat moss in the tank. Add water up to the top of the peat moss. Level the moss and clean the edges of the tank.

2) Place 1" of play sand on top of the wet moss. Repeat the adding water, leveling and cleaning.

3) Place 1" of pc select on top of the sand and again add water, level, and clean.

4) Add the plants. I like the anacharis in back, vals down the sides, the potted left and right of center and the amazon sword more or less centered. Then level the pc select till it looks nice.

5) Using water from a commonly used cold water faucet add water poured over a dish untill the tank is full.

6) Add the lights and turn on 8-10 hours per day.

7) Do nothing but admire the tank for 1 week.

8) Add a single fish. If live bearer a singe male. I like the dwarf sunburst platties.

9) Do nothing for one week but admire how active the fish is and wonder why he is pooping so nicely. If you feed that fish it will die on the 5th day.

10) Add 2 females (of you use live bearers) or 4 other fish if you did not use live bearers.

11) start feeding 1 flake per day.

upkeep.

1) Feed very lightly.

2) Replace evaporative water with water from a cold faucet that has been ran for a minute or so.

3) If the tank clouds up, you have algae, or cyano, kill the light and stop feeding until it clears up.

Just to be sure you uderstand.

1) no chemicals of any type

2) no mechanicals of any kind. No filters, No airstone. Nothing

3) don't worry about the snail bloom after a few weeks. Do Nothing. In a year there will only be a few left.

Once ot twice a year of maybe more often you may want to "clean" the mulm on the substrate. Just don't get carried away. Don't stir up the substate.

And of course you will probably have to harvest the plants from time to time.




here is a such as it is picture of a 20g long. Notice the "high tech" lighting. :lol:




Here is the cycle parameters of that 20g long FW





So there it is.

the "beaslbob build". Which has had the same results in may cities in teh US as I was transferred aorund in the air force.

It's just my take on the time honored natural or balanced or walstad or lieden methods. You basically establish a balance eco system right from the start and let that take care of the tank.

and worth at most.

.02
 
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#2 ·
Beaslbob build Parameters example

I can't access my test results from work so will post that and vid of a tank from home tonight.

:oops:
 
#3 ·
I think people in general "do" too much to their tanks. Thanks for sharing.
 
#5 ·
Thanks!
"2 11-14 watt skinny spiral pig tail 6500k floursent bulbs" <-lol!!!

oh curious,, is the peat moss for PH issues or some other reason?
that actually is an excellent question.

PH with or without the peat moss rises to purple on the api high range test kit. (8.4-8.8)

I found out that with just play sand kH rose to over 20 degrees and gH rose to 40 degrees or more.

And neon tetras did not do well.

But with the peat moss kH stayed at 4 degrees and gH at 9 degrees for over 2 years.

And neon tetras thrived.


I think the pH is high because the plants are removeing the co2 and returning oxygen. Plus the lack of circulation deters those values from more closely matching atmospheric conditions.

But then I worry that most people expecially newbies would try to change those values. Meanwhile, the fish in my tanks just keep swimming and swimming and swimming.

my .02
 
#7 ·
and thanks for response. :lol:

Kinda hard to wrap your mind around but give this a thought.

With this system the quality of the tap water is not anywhere nearly as important as when water changes are being done. PH and all other parameters in the tank's environment are overwhelmingly a function of the tank itself. Therefore, the a safe environment in the tank can be setup and maintained with just about any potable tap water. I don't intend to test it but I honestly don't think the input water has to be even potable. (afterall plants are used to clean up enviromental toxic wastes). So as long as the plants are thriving the water will be conditioned to support the fish.

my .02
 
#11 ·
plants also consume nutrients in the water column that would otherwise raise the PH (not just CO2)

would have me thinking, the cap lowers the rate nutrients are released into the water column till it's slow enough the plants can keep the levels in the water column down

I have heard peat moss (sphagnum peat moss) when alive, can hold up to 40% of it's mass as water to deal with long periods without rain (or other sources of water to hydrate it). as this turns into a large store of water, the moss's natural defense to keep this water free from an infection is to keep this water acidic. I THINK this is where adding peat moss to substrates is done in an attempt to keep the PH lower.

i would think, (from your tests) this is more of an old-wives-tale than reality, ... (but honestly i don't know)
 
#12 ·
plants also consume nutrients in the water column that would otherwise raise the PH (not just CO2)

would have me thinking, the cap lowers the rate nutrients are released into the water column till it's slow enough the plants can keep the levels in the water column down

I have heard peat moss (sphagnum peat moss) when alive, can hold up to 40% of it's mass as water to deal with long periods without rain (or other sources of water to hydrate it). as this turns into a large store of water, the moss's natural defense to keep this water free from an infection is to keep this water acidic. I THINK this is where adding peat moss to substrates is done in an attempt to keep the PH lower.

i would think, (from your tests) this is more of an old-wives-tale than reality, ... (but honestly i don't know)
I think it does act to lower the pH but after a few weeks the plants sucking out the co2 overrides the effect.

Also read on a canadian peat moss site that for soil it actually hold ammonia to be released later.

If that is true then it should also help trap ammonia in our tanks durint the initial cycle.

my .02
 
#13 ·
When you clean your substrate once or twice a year as you stated.. about what percentage of your water volume would you say you tend to change? I'm just wondering how you clean it when you say you never do water changes..is there a certain amount that doesn't count? Or do you have one of those eheim vacs?

Does the tank by all appearances look clean when kept this way?
Sorry if this seems like an interrogation but I'm trying to get a complete view of your fish keeping method. Or maybe it's more the Aquarium keeping method then the fish themselves I'm "investigating" ;-) (Since I think for the most part we keep vastly different fish aside from maybe my kids 16g tank)
 
#15 ·
When you clean your substrate once or twice a year as you stated.. about what percentage of your water volume would you say you tend to change? I'm just wondering how you clean it when you say you never do water changes..is there a certain amount that doesn't count? Or do you have one of those eheim vacs?

Does the tank by all appearances look clean when kept this way?
Sorry if this seems like an interrogation but I'm trying to get a complete view of your fish keeping method. Or maybe it's more the Aquarium keeping method then the fish themselves I'm "investigating" ;-) (Since I think for the most part we keep vastly different fish aside from maybe my kids 16g tank)
I remove as little water as possible when cleaning up the substrate.

Water looks clear when dont correctly. With higher lighting and feeding it does get cloudy. I a totally dark tank the water remain clear. So the "trick" is to hit a balace where you have healthy plants and fish with clear water.

my .02
 
#16 ·
parameters and pictures

Better late then never.

(Wish admin would move to my original post.)



here is a such as it is picture of a 20g long. Notice the "high tech" lighting. :lol:






Here is the cycle parameters of that 20g long FW


 
#18 ·
actually the water is clear but there is a slight algae on the back glass
 
#19 ·
i've got algae all over in my tank, ... i am looking for different algae, but dono what i could find that would suit my purposes, ...

there is the typical algae types, long and stringy, short and bushy, or forming fluffy clumps, shades of green or black (cyano aside),

actually cyano has me curious about nitrates as well, i came across something (one thing only actually) that mentioned cyanobacteria can increase nitrates directly from N2, ... most cyanobacterias are toxic, but i think some are safe. a random thought for dealing with planted tanks that have a nitrogen deficiency.

but with other algae types, than the typical ones that affect most peoples freshwater tanks, i'm sure some have some rather unique appearances and may be rather nice to have in a tank. provided they don't get out of hand.
 
#20 ·
actually cyano has me curious about nitrates as well, i came across something (one thing only actually) that mentioned cyanobacteria can increase nitrates directly from N2, ... most cyanobacterias are toxic, but i think some are safe. a random thought for dealing with planted tanks that have a nitrogen deficiency.
.
I'm pretty sure it's more the cyanobacteria in marine tanks that are harmful. It can however starve your plants in freshwater but mostly it's just ugly and difficult if it gets out of control. It's really already in small amounts in all places on earth but only noticeable when given the right circumstances to "bloom" .
 
#21 ·
ya, i'm not at a point to consider really looking into cyano, ... i would only consider it if i needed to for nitrates, ... so for now it's just a curiosity, one of the many things i've come across, ... and i've seen what some tanks are like where it gets out of hand, ... not worth it in my books :(
 
#24 ·
just have the 55g since we moved to a new house 3 years ago. before that 10g leiden, 55g was a mixed reet, 30 mixed reef, betta bowl, 20g long leiden.

As to the waltstad, I do not use co2, do use organics (the peat moss but not the potting soil) limited water changes. heavily planted, lower lights. Not exactly the same but close.

my.02
 
#27 ·
i have yet to get the book, on the list of things to get
from what i understand isn't it the organic topsoil as the key ingredient for the substrate, ... that's about the same as peat, although one is a generic mix from whatever dirt plot it was shoveled from, and one is a specific farmed & dried plant mix (or something like that, you get the idea)

simular enough in my books, ... yet still different enough
 
#28 ·
He recommends something far different. Her book actually is very good for a planted low maintenance tank. His method is no more like her method then any of my tanks. I personally would highly recommend her method however.


And bealsbob, you posted parameters for a random tank from a decade ago.
You are however right, your method does pop up on google..by all the forums you've been banned from and discussions of how you never post recent pictures and aggressively push this method like it's some valid proven method onto newbies on all forums.
 
#29 · (Edited)
I'm not sure about the whole no water change thing. i think it may work for some, and crash for others.

I set up a ten gallon for my uncle back in may 2012. I used some kind of garden soil capped with a sand substrate....It was the first and last time I ever set up a soil based tank, can't say I'm a fan...

I didn't have time to wait for the tank to establish, so I planted the tank with a mixture of hair grass, rotalas and Charale and threw in 6 endler frys and one betta (which i hoped will keep the population in check... )

Half a year later I come back home to visit and find that my uncle's family switched off the light, heater and filter in favor of saving electricity. They did however place the tank near a well lit window. I also came home to an overfed betta who lazily watched delicious fry dance past him(grandmas and their over doting tendencies...), about 40- 100 guppies (couldn't count them all). And ofcourse they didn't do a single water change like I instructed...

What was note worthy was the level of over grown greeness in that tank. I couldn't see 3 in past the front glass... ditto if I'm looking in from the side.

For the sake of my own sanity, I did a large water change and trimmed some plants... it's been 8 months since then, and I have no idea what kind of hideous self evolving monster the tank has grown into....

needless to say, sometimes these things work. I just wouldn't recommend it to others because there is that chance of it failing when you can't exactly explain why it is scientific. O_O I would whip my uncle's family into proper tank care if I had the authority...

honestly, in the end.. I just don't want to be responsible for someone else's tank crash.....



EDIT:


Here are the pics of said tank AFTER I did a water change and trim. I was so horrified I didn't even think to take a photo of the "before" and immediate set off to perform water change and trim... lol








Sent from Petguide.com App
 
#31 ·
I'm not sure about the whole no water change thing. i think it may work for some, and crash for others.

I set up a ten gallon for my uncle back in may 2012. I used some kind of garden soil capped with a sand substrate....It was the first and last time I ever set up a soil based tank, can't say I'm a fan...

I didn't have time to wait for the tank to establish, so I planted the tank with a mixture of hair grass, rotalas and Charale and threw in 6 endler frys and one betta (which i hoped will keep the population in check... )

Half a year later I come back home to visit and find that my uncle's family switched off the light, heater and filter in favor of saving electricity. They did however place the tank near a well lit window. I also came home to an overfed betta who lazily watched delicious fry dance past him(grandmas and their over doting tendencies...), about 40- 100 guppies (couldn't count them all). And ofcourse they didn't do a single water change like I instructed...


....
Thanks for posting. This agrees with my experience.

FWIW IMHO what you did was smart not just lucky.

so much for these methods are not for beginers and require advanced experienced aquarumists. :shock:

my .02
 
#33 ·
I got no dog in this fight but seem to me the limiting factor will be denitrification This must take place under some condition in the ecosystems. In general, it occurs where oxygen is depleted, and bacteria respire nitrate as a substitute terminal electron acceptor. Due to the high concentration of oxygen in our atmosphere denitrification only takes place in anoxic environments. Plants assimilation nitrate ion reducing this to ammonia produces one OH- ion. To maintain a pH balance, the plant must either excrete it into the surrounding medium or neutralize it with an organic acids. This will result in the water becoming alkaline. Now granted that with superior plant growth the trimming process would remove nitrogen from the environment but I can't see plant trimming reducing nitrogen to the point of no water changes. And I won't go into DOC in the water column.

R
 
#34 ·
I got no dog in this fight but seem to me the limiting factor will be denitrification This must take place under some condition in the ecosystems. In general, it occurs where oxygen is depleted, and bacteria respire nitrate as a substitute terminal electron acceptor. Due to the high concentration of oxygen in our atmosphere denitrification only takes place in anoxic environments. Plants assimilation nitrate ion reducing this to ammonia produces one OH- ion. To maintain a pH balance, the plant must either excrete it into the surrounding medium or neutralize it with an organic acids. This will result in the water becoming alkaline. Now granted that with superior plant growth the trimming process would remove nitrogen from the environment but I can't see plant trimming reducing nitrogen to the point of no water changes. And I won't go into DOC in the water column.

R
I am totally unaware of that process and in years of posting I have never heard that before. Can you provide me a reference where plants tank nitrate and reduce it to ammonia?

I am very aware that plants consume nitrates (when no ammonia is available) plus phosphate plus some other nutrients, plus co2, and return oxygen. In that process plant tissue/food is produced along with the returned oxygen. So it seems to me that anaerobic denitrification would be unnecessary. Especially when the plants have made the tank a net consumer of co2 and producer of oxygen each 24 hour period.

I have heard of anaerobic processes as in deap sea beds in marine tank (with limited algaes present). In that process the nitrates are reduced to nitrItes and then to nitrogen gas. A when not working in that manner can in fact further reduce the nitrItes to ammonia instead of the nitrogen gas. Which obviously is not a healthy environment as the ammonia then would then add to the "bio load" for the aerobic bacteria. Not to mention the sulfer compunds produces also.

I am also aware that reducing co2 rasies pH with KH remaining constant. Hence my high PH values (8.4-8.8 purple on the api high range test kit) indicating low co2 in the system.

But then I am still learning. Meanwhile my old tanks did just fine for years and years.

Still just my .02
 
#35 ·
Nitrate transport: a key step in nitrate assimilation
Fran¸coise Daniel-Vedele∗, Sophie Filleur and Michel Caboche


"Nitrate is the major source of nitrogen for the vast majority
of plants. It is first reduced to nitrite by nitrate reductase
(NR), nitrite being further reduced into ammonium by
nitrite reductase (NiR). Nitrate assimilation has been the
matter of many studies and has been reviewed by Hoff et
al. [1], Crawford [2] and more recently by Daniel-Vedele
and Caboche [3] and Campbell [4]. Of particular interest,
is the study of the post-transcriptional control of nitrate
reductase activity."

R
 
#47 ·
Nitrate transport: a key step in nitrate assimilation
Fran¸coise Daniel-Vedele∗, Sophie Filleur and Michel Caboche


"Nitrate is the major source of nitrogen for the vast majority
of plants. It is first reduced to nitrite by nitrate reductase
(NR), nitrite being further reduced into ammonium by
nitrite reductase (NiR). Nitrate assimilation has been the
matter of many studies and has been reviewed by Hoff et
al. [1], Crawford [2] and more recently by Daniel-Vedele
and Caboche [3] and Campbell [4]. Of particular interest,
is the study of the post-transcriptional control of nitrate
reductase activity."

R

Interesting.

Is this internal to the plants? Could explain why plants use more energy to consume nitrates then when consuming ammonia.

thanks.
 
#38 ·
You guys and your plants.....
 
#52 ·
dono about energy levels or such about what the plants get or how much they have to burn to consume nitrates vs ammonium, ...

it's easy at a ph under 6.5, it's almost all ammonium, almost zero ammonia
plants like ammonium.
after that plants like nitrates, which (as i have red anyway) will process nitrates into ammonium so they can once more use ammonium

ammonia on the other hand, ... well that's toxic
ammonium & ammonia are different although interchangeable based on PH.
one is safe for our tanks, one we hope we have an established tank to start the nitrogen cycle else our tanks are going to die.

i could be wrong, but plants don't like ammonia at all
our tanks are expected to have little to no ability to process ammonium, allowing it to build up, ... except for that slim margin of ammonia at those lower PH levels that can process the nitrogen cycle

PH below 6.5, great, doesn't take much to maintain a non-toxic environment with fish swimming in heavy ammonium concentrations
a PH shift can be all that's needed to suddenly kill all our fish before we know what happened.

sure, i'm way off topic on ammonia vs ammonium vs nitrates on, ... but ammonia doesn't factor in.
 
#53 ·
I'm not a plant person, but I have heard them say that plants do like ammonia.
 
#54 ·
the little bits i've come across (it's a really hard search)

i couldn't find clear answers on plants directly using ammonia
i did find answers that suggest regardless what the plant absorbs the plants internal PH will convert it to ammonium and it gets what it's after for it's nitrogen nutrient

i did come across stuff that mentioned as far as ammonia is concerned plants can tolerate ammonia levels high enough to kill our fish long before the plant suffers
 
#55 ·
#57 ·
so that's where the kittly liter stuff comes from.

Thanks
 
#58 ·
never know where research will take you when looking up what is needed to build a self-sustaining aquarium.

much of what i have seen of other peoples attempts involved tanks that, ... well, ... if you couldn't see it easily with your eye, if you couldn't readily obtain it from the LFS it wasn't worth considering.

but things i have found, ... substrates, various algaes, fish with a rather exacting diet, stuff in the tank to match that diet, ... things/critters to increase the health of the substrate, more research on what to do about nutrients in the water column, lighting, tempuratures, ... well now i'm bragging

but down to the basics, ... what i think is needed for a self-sustaining aquarium is a giant over what i have heard of people attempting.

i run into some major serious concerns with various cycles in the tank, ... nitrogen cycle, ... where there's stages that involve gasses to be gassed off, that's nothing other than nutrients lost that the tank will not regain, ... that's scary and nothing can be done about it

things to help retain nutrients in the tank, preferably in the substrate, ... no stone unturned, ... and high CEC additives are something i am really interested in to solve one of the problems.

high AEC minerals ... well that's proving to be trickier.

some time i have to head over to another forum where i found information on issues with DSBs, (real issues are talked about, not the ones people keep imagining) that i think interferes with, but relates to the possitive & negative charge in the substrate affecting nutrient retention there.

and how to solve the nitrogen/ammonia issue, i don't even know what other nutrients have a form in the aquarium that can be gassed off.

in addition is chelating chemicals, which brought up concerns about farming fertilizers, organic fertilizers vs the chemical ones, ... those chemical ones are toxic, worse for an aquarium man-made chelating chemicals are no better, ... try to find what to add to chelate chemicals that would otherwise eventually remove themself from the usable aquarium life-cycle, ... :/

but yup, this is the stuff that kitty litter is made from
also used in the oil industry to remove water from the oil, ... and other things i haven't heard about.
 
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